Anyone here read any Sylvia Plath? I remember her saying that she was astonished that men could go insane, that she thought only women needed to go insane and wondered why men did. I always wondered why she felt that way. Maybe someone here in the gray area of gender has some insight?
Absaroka
Sylvia Plath
Moderators: KimberlyS, Eileen (SO)
-
Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3344
- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:30 am
Sylvia Plath
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
-
Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
Knowing you, I guess you are asking a serious question, but my answer is women drive men there and as a codcil: Men die before women because they choose to do so!
Beyond that I will not comment because I am finally healing up from the bruises of being drug off to the woodshed by the GG's here.
Still love you all!
Virginia
Beyond that I will not comment because I am finally healing up from the bruises of being drug off to the woodshed by the GG's here.
Still love you all!
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
-
Carolynn
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 2754
- Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:52 pm
- Location: Oklahoma City area
- Contact:
Perhaps she was not astute enough to recognize the social and workplace pressures on men as opposed to women (which can help cause irrational behavior or "nervous breakdowns"), nor knowledgeable enough about insanity to know it's often the result of hormonal and chemical imbalances in the brain.
"It’s not given to anyone to have no regrets; only to decide, through the choices we make, which regrets we’ll have,"
David Weber – In Fury Born
David Weber – In Fury Born
-
EmilyN
- Miss Sapphire Goddess
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:24 am
- Location: Arizona
- Contact:
lol, i see another woodshed in your very near future! suggest you put a cast iron griddle in your panties and feign terrible pain.Virginia wrote:Knowing you, I guess you are asking a serious question, but my answer is women drive men there and as a codcil: Men die before women because they choose to do so!
glutton! ha!Virginia wrote:Beyond that I will not comment because I am finally healing up from the bruises of being drug off to the woodshed by the GG's here.
seriously i have no clue what she meant by that remark though it sounds pithy and ever so made for the finger food (read: not Ho Ho's) and aperitif circuit (read: not long-neck Buds).....which is to say people who are better educated and probably better heeled than moi. on the surface it strikes me as sexist with the implication that women carry the burdens that ought to cause mental distress while the burdens of men are a lighter load. assuming (a dangerous thing to do) that's the case: if she only knew........
-
Stephanie W
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:57 pm
- Location: Ontario, Canada
While I can't comment intelligently on Plath's works, I wonder whether her views may have changed had she lived to see her son follow in her footsteps by committing suicide.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/books/0 ... newssearch
Depression does not respect gender boundaries.
Stephanie
http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/books/0 ... newssearch
Depression does not respect gender boundaries.
Stephanie
-
Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3344
- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:30 am
My wife read about that and told me. It is very sad.
My personal opinion is that her thinking that only women could go insane was a combination of the rigid sex roles of the 50's and early 60's combined with a " the grass is greener" thinking.
Absaroka
My personal opinion is that her thinking that only women could go insane was a combination of the rigid sex roles of the 50's and early 60's combined with a " the grass is greener" thinking.
Absaroka
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
-
Anita
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3068
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:55 pm
- Location: Burlingame, CA (San Francisco Bay area)
Hi Absaroka--
It's hard to be neutral about Sylvia Plath. In the 70's, and beyond, she was used by feminists as a hammer to beat men over the head. She became so much of a symbol that I never found out who she might be for me. I scanned The Bell Jar , and it didn't speak to me at all.
After I saw your post, I found some quotes by her, but that didn't tell me a lot about who she was. Her opinion about men and insanity seems very naive, on the surface. This is just me, but if I'm saying something extreme like that, it's usually to make a point about how much pain I'm in.
I know that people will listen if I make a statement that jars their ears, and that's what this statement does to me. It's like someone singing out of tune.
It's hard to be neutral about Sylvia Plath. In the 70's, and beyond, she was used by feminists as a hammer to beat men over the head. She became so much of a symbol that I never found out who she might be for me. I scanned The Bell Jar , and it didn't speak to me at all.
After I saw your post, I found some quotes by her, but that didn't tell me a lot about who she was. Her opinion about men and insanity seems very naive, on the surface. This is just me, but if I'm saying something extreme like that, it's usually to make a point about how much pain I'm in.
I know that people will listen if I make a statement that jars their ears, and that's what this statement does to me. It's like someone singing out of tune.
-
Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3344
- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:30 am
Her statement was made in reference to her observing men in a psych hospital and realizing that men did in fact go insane. It was more of a case by her being surprised when she realized the truth than of denying the truth, and was a positive realization that men could feel as much pain as she could. Realizing that they must, otherwise why would they be there? I also saw it as her own examination of her realization of how little she understood about men, insanity, and herself. I didn't see it as an accusation although I can see how it would sound like that out of context.
The whole topic reminds me of discussions of the blues. Once upon a time the conventional wisdom was only Black people could play the blues because only they had suffered enough. Without getting into a discussion of race in America it's just not true. Conventional wisdom today says blues are so popular because everybody gets the blues. Being White didn't make Eric Clapton feel any better when his son fell out a 26th story window. At the same time he sings in his voice, not an immitation of someone else's complete with a fake accent and dropped dipthongs, and he doesn't try for any one up manship in terms of who suffers the most. I think that is what offends people about statements like how can men go insane. Everyone's pain is their own.
I read the entire Bell Jar because my girlfriend liked it so much. But it didn't do much for me.
Absaroka
The whole topic reminds me of discussions of the blues. Once upon a time the conventional wisdom was only Black people could play the blues because only they had suffered enough. Without getting into a discussion of race in America it's just not true. Conventional wisdom today says blues are so popular because everybody gets the blues. Being White didn't make Eric Clapton feel any better when his son fell out a 26th story window. At the same time he sings in his voice, not an immitation of someone else's complete with a fake accent and dropped dipthongs, and he doesn't try for any one up manship in terms of who suffers the most. I think that is what offends people about statements like how can men go insane. Everyone's pain is their own.
I read the entire Bell Jar because my girlfriend liked it so much. But it didn't do much for me.
Absaroka
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
-
Christina Huffman
- Miss Silver Goddess
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:43 pm
- Location: Morgantown, WV
- Contact:
Sylvia Plath is one of my favorite authors - during my senior year of college I read the Bell Jar, her poetry, and her unedited journals. The Bell Jar really spoke to me because I've had struggles with deep depression as well. If you like the Bell Jar, you'll also like "Johnny Panic and the Bible of Dreams".
I think that quote you brought up is in reference to what Betty Friedan would call the feminine mystique the same year Plath died - the "problem that has no name", in which many housewives suffered from dysphoria, anxiety, somatic problems, etc., suffered from. Friedan, like many others, attributed this to the subjugation of women in society and how they had given up so much rather than working as equals and reaching self-fulfillment. Many of her poems address this, "The Applicant" probably being one of the most famous.
I think part of that comment refers to this feminine mystique that men did not suffer through at this time. This may be a large part of why she believed, previous to working at the psych hospital, that men did not go insane.
This whole gender and mental illness interaction is something I'm very interested in overall. I do think for quite a few mental illnesses this false belief still exists in society, especially depressive and anxiety disorders. I think that society still views these as primarily afflicting women; even though we know men are afflicted as well, society expects men to be stoic and unfazed. On the other hand, things like ADHD, learning disabilities, conduct disorder, etc., are seen as male diseases.
Cool topic, though!
I think that quote you brought up is in reference to what Betty Friedan would call the feminine mystique the same year Plath died - the "problem that has no name", in which many housewives suffered from dysphoria, anxiety, somatic problems, etc., suffered from. Friedan, like many others, attributed this to the subjugation of women in society and how they had given up so much rather than working as equals and reaching self-fulfillment. Many of her poems address this, "The Applicant" probably being one of the most famous.
I think part of that comment refers to this feminine mystique that men did not suffer through at this time. This may be a large part of why she believed, previous to working at the psych hospital, that men did not go insane.
This whole gender and mental illness interaction is something I'm very interested in overall. I do think for quite a few mental illnesses this false belief still exists in society, especially depressive and anxiety disorders. I think that society still views these as primarily afflicting women; even though we know men are afflicted as well, society expects men to be stoic and unfazed. On the other hand, things like ADHD, learning disabilities, conduct disorder, etc., are seen as male diseases.
Cool topic, though!
Christina Huffman
"Ocean-going ships are safest in port, but that is not what ships are built for."
-Unknown
"Ocean-going ships are safest in port, but that is not what ships are built for."
-Unknown
-
CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Interesting thread.
I'd have to re-read The Bell Jar. I've heard much and read some about Sylvia Plath. I'd tend to agree with Christina and consider Ms. Plath's statement an expression of the traditional feminist "wisdom" that, in a patriarchic culture, "only women bleed." Of course, that's pure hogwash; any culture in which you find rigid gender structures will be detrimental to the good mental health of members of any sex. Anatomy is definitely NOT destiny.
While it seems to be the case that mood disorders--such as depression--and anxiety disorders affect men and women pretty much equally, there still exist, apparently, some "gender-preferential" disorders; sexual disorders, for instance, are more often seen in men and personality disorders more often in women. The one mood disorder that still affects primarily women (again, apparently) is dysthemia, a form of chronic, low-grade depression. It often goes unrecognized or untreated. Feminists will tend to consider it as arising out of oppressive male social power structures. Perhaps.
I mean, I look at the ads from the 1950s with the "June Cleaver" type of happy-housewife-model nearly having an orgasm over her new automatic dishwasher and, to be honest, if I were in her shoes, I'd be dysthemic too. As in, this is life? or this is MY life? ...to ooh and aah over another man-made appliance that will help me better serve the man of the house? Maybe this is what Sylvia Plath was trying to say. That, just because it appeared society "serviced" men better than it did women, Plath had never considered that men were just as much trapped by this arrangement as women were.
Of course, today, in our enlightened world, such gender constraints don't exist anymore.
Yeah. Okay.
Love,
CJ
Interesting thread.
I'd have to re-read The Bell Jar. I've heard much and read some about Sylvia Plath. I'd tend to agree with Christina and consider Ms. Plath's statement an expression of the traditional feminist "wisdom" that, in a patriarchic culture, "only women bleed." Of course, that's pure hogwash; any culture in which you find rigid gender structures will be detrimental to the good mental health of members of any sex. Anatomy is definitely NOT destiny.
While it seems to be the case that mood disorders--such as depression--and anxiety disorders affect men and women pretty much equally, there still exist, apparently, some "gender-preferential" disorders; sexual disorders, for instance, are more often seen in men and personality disorders more often in women. The one mood disorder that still affects primarily women (again, apparently) is dysthemia, a form of chronic, low-grade depression. It often goes unrecognized or untreated. Feminists will tend to consider it as arising out of oppressive male social power structures. Perhaps.
I mean, I look at the ads from the 1950s with the "June Cleaver" type of happy-housewife-model nearly having an orgasm over her new automatic dishwasher and, to be honest, if I were in her shoes, I'd be dysthemic too. As in, this is life? or this is MY life? ...to ooh and aah over another man-made appliance that will help me better serve the man of the house? Maybe this is what Sylvia Plath was trying to say. That, just because it appeared society "serviced" men better than it did women, Plath had never considered that men were just as much trapped by this arrangement as women were.
Of course, today, in our enlightened world, such gender constraints don't exist anymore.
Yeah. Okay.
Love,
CJ
