Models of Gender Variance

General talk about CD/TGing and gender topics that aren't necessarily fun things we do while en femme, or for gender-driven discussions.

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Anne Bonny
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Models of Gender Variance

Post by Anne Bonny »

I am endlessly fascinated by this area. I have been thinking of a model of gender variance that fits where I am on the gender spectrum. Gender exists on a line or spectrum which runs from Masculine to Feminine. We can think of those who identify as being fully feminine or masculine and are: feminine and female and Masculine and male and Identify fully within their two spheres, that is there is a Masculine sphere for men, and a Feminine sphere for women. What is the distance between these two spheres or do the two spheres lay next to each other touching but not overlapping? And where would we place people who are transgender? Interesting - I suppose only to myself...hum. But! I do think though most gentlemen and fewer ladies would deny it they do have some overlapping more or less with the opposite sphere. Is there on this gender spectrum or line any space which both the masculine and feminine spheres would reject? NO I believe is the answer because that would be impossible, but there is overlap because it would not be denied by either gender that some men or women have a softer or harder side.

I wonder if there is some play then within the gender spheres some people laying further to the masculine male side and some to the feminine female side? Hum.

I believe I have more overlap with the masculine side than I do with the feminine side but that part of my extreme lies within the identify with and am male and masculine side (my moderate male self) But part, a lesser part of myself does lie on the identify with but am not female and feminine side, acknowledging that the bulk of my gender identity is not on the exclusively feminine side acknowledging I am not female.

Those who are transgender fit fully or nearly so into the opposite of their gender sphere so much so that they have no choice but to have corrective surgery. Fascinating.

Suppose I should see what models the professional gender specialists have come up with to fit their various theories.

I have always tried to quantify this hazarding a guess about where my gender is on the spectrum. I do not feel 50/50 but now that I have been able to I seem to be dressing feminine every day! Perhaps not all day but most of the day as I do sleep in feminine sleepwear every night, and have not been wearing any male underwear. I could be in an adjustment phase that has not equalized or stabilized yet, who knows, Seems like it may work out or could be, could I be less masculine in practice? left unhindered to freely be who I am? I will never have that answer I am probably just chasing my tail again...as I am floating on air so happy to have found myself!!!:) Got to go run...will try leaving my make up on but cover with sunglasses and see how it goes will the sweat make my mascara run?
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Ralitsa
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Re: Models of Gender Variance

Post by Ralitsa »

Well of course I object to the categorization of personality traits as masculine and feminine because I think the instant one does that, they basically become self-fulfilling prophecies. When someone says "this is masculine" it is understood to mean that anyone born with specific anatomical features must follow that rule.

But there are things, aggression being the classic example, which are strongly linked to sex hormones. It would be nice to think that we can rise above hormonally driven behavior. The evolutionary biologists would tell us that's probably a pipe dream, but the religious leaders would argue that humans are meant to be something more than mere animals.

So I think it would be interesting to see some of the more important attributes given a scale that has nothing to do with gender. Such as a 0-10 rating for compassion, empathy, confidence, leadership, competitiveness, math ability, artistic ability, problem solving, cheerfulness, etc. Then instead of saying that a particular attribute is masculine and another is feminine, we can say that all of these are good things to have. It would be perfect if everyone in the world ranked 10 on everything.
Otherwise, people are led to the belief that, for example leadership and confidence must come at the expense of compassion and empathy. And that results in leaders who are heartless brutes, which is pretty much the history of the world.
One could then describe themselves according to how well they rate on the things that matter instead of whether they are more like one stereotype or another. So if I look at myself on that basis, I do pretty good on math and problem solving. I completely suck on artistic ability, and compassion & empathy need a lot of work. So it would make sense to me then, that to raise my scores in those subjects I do poorly on, I should associate with and emulate those people who do well on that. I don't want to believe that I can never improve in art because I'm good at math. And I'm pretty old, but I think we should still be trying to improve ourselves or there is no point in living.
Requal Jo
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Re: Models of Gender Variance

Post by Requal Jo »

I think you raise an interesting question Anne.

Are we on a continuum? One pole masculine and the other pole feminine! Where do we fit on the line?

Psychologists sometimes use a continuum to classify where a person stands in life. Where would they put us on the line? As you say, where would we put ourselves.

I would put myself in the masculine pole with the occasional wander down the line to about a quarter of the way to feminine when dress as Requal. I am not TG and do not have TG thoughts. I am just a male who enjoys wearing female apparel.

I am a private dresser and do not have the courage or confidence to take Requal out into the open. Persons who have this confidence will probably place themselves further down the line than I.

I don't think I would ever cross the half way mark as I am male through and through.

Where would other persons place themselves on this continuum.
Requal
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Anne Bonny
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Re: Models of Gender Variance

Post by Anne Bonny »

This is like the Manhattan Project to me, or trying to catch lightening in a bottle. Ralitsa added a very good insight into this thread. "I object to the categorization of personality traits as masculine and feminine" I think she is correct. We must throw out the entire idea of personality traits because men and women share the very same traits the degree they are displayed varies from individual to individual. We must also acknowledge hormones influence behavior and of course the hormones of men and women differ in amount and intensity. On my run today I was thinking about all of this and I thought perhaps Gender is just a sense that we have about ourselves. I found this basic definition of Gender, of course generally it indicates our sex, but the secondary general meaning zeros in on our discussion and I think our gender has to do with where we sense that we are on this scale. I wish I were more intelligent but I struggle and will probably never really understand it fully.

a : sex <the feminine gender>
b : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
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Toni_Lynn_P
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Re: Models of Gender Variance

Post by Toni_Lynn_P »

Groovy topic here. For me, it kinda breaks like this -- I love wearing girls clothes. I love being feminine and pretty. At the same time, I'd love to be a tomboy. I'd love to to 'boy' things, but only if I could be a girl doing them.

I have sometime thought, that if I was GG, I'd be a crossdresser, albeit the FTM kind.

Its kinda like this. As teen age boy (and even before that) during those formative years when many patterns are imprinted, I was not allowed to run and play or be with any of the neighbourhood boys -- basically because they were 'bad'. I kept to myself, most eading (The World Book Encyclopedia, Reader's Digest, and things like the Sensuous Woman and Everything you Always Wanted to Know About Sex ... (more on those last two another time)), listening to records and my shortwave radio. My sister on the other hand was allowed to play software and run and play. In my little brain it suddenly occurred to me that the only way I could be a boy was to be a girl. So, here I am -- a crossdresser -- who doesn't mind pretending to be a boy sometimes.

Hugs

Toni-Lynn
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Carol Esme
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Re: Models of Gender Variance

Post by Carol Esme »

I think any attempt to force gender into a simple one dimensional line progressing from one extreme to the other with various descriptions of part-way houses is way too simplistic. Think of gender as multi-dimensional and you might get closer to the truth. I want something that is unobtainable at this late stage in my life but it exists in my head and informs my choices. I want to keep my family connections even though they are incompatible with my fantasies. Age and earlier (not gender driven) surgery limit my choices. I'm changing my body with hormones and electrolysis but socialising my femme side is lagging. I really enjoy my time as a female but sometimes scream for time as a boy. Where am I on a one dimensional line? Very advanced in some respects but hardly started in others.
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Noeleena
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Re: Models of Gender Variance

Post by Noeleena »

Hi,

Not sure if you like this idear though its not really .

No gender and do what ever its not a just a male can do this or that same for women its hey we can do most things as women if we have to redesign something to help us then we will .

Whats my gender nothing really or just male female i dont see male or female as you here , its just a non event as far as im concerned .
male role or female role i.ll do both and no hassle , a role i spent years doing what ever i was assigned all sorts of things to do i did not ? oh i cant do that that s a male job or other or i cant do that its womens work He He .........i have to laugh.... if we quit doing what we do most of our groups would fold over night we run them we work them and how many men would wont to do what we do .

You wont a role try this take us women out of the country and what would happen how would the country run it would grind to a stand still , again what if the men were taken out the country would it still be running and better , why you ask your self why.

2 nd WW bring any thing to mind our womens role was to run the ship while the men were away playing games and if you see the realness of this youll understand what im saying

Im involved with many groups and women run them and yet we are still put down why , are we not worth something or equal im not saying we are better its just well cant we be seen for who we are and what we can do .

On xmas day we our community are putting on a Kiwi xmas dinner manly for those who are alone or cant afford a day out or what ever the reason does not matter and its free for them hope to have 120 come we have sorted what food we need ,hope my amounts are right.

i helped last year and this year im incharge of it i,ll have 15 working for me and helping, funny as, all women . oh ......and one guy apart from us is cocking some meat other wise i,ll only have women with me . now if we dont do it would the men ooops what men yea well okay it wont happen .

Is it demeaning for men to cook and be my runners and servers and cleanup and just do what we need done . we asked for any one to help only two men offered .

What if i ask our women about gender would they be interested nope we are doers and cant be bothered with this male / female role type issue we just do what ever and do it.

Okay just see the fun side here, you all wellcome to come over and enjoy with us our Kiwi xmas day dinner . 12 o clock at our St Pats Hall Waimate xmas day .

...noeleena...
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