Pronouns

[Ralitsa]

I guess most everyone has notice the trend lately of specifying pronouns. The subject came up at my company a few years ago and I've been involved with the effort of getting pronouns added to email signatures.
You'd think that would be pretty straightforward - and you would be wrong.
After numerous software changes, upgrades, corporate policy decisions, corporate communications opinions, and seemingly unnecessary long hours of programming, we are finally getting there.
Our options are:
they/their/them
zie/zir/zirs (this is my choice)
xe/xir/xirs
she/her/hers
he/him/his

But here's the problem. Even though I like zie/zir because it supposedly says nothing about gender, people are way too good at reading meaning into the smallest thing. So if I look like a woman and I don't use she/her, then I'm obviously not a real woman, sooooooooo........... And if I use she/her, then people who've known me a long time will think: ok, nice try but no.
But the more honest choice is zie/zir so I specify that, but people who want to be nice to me and are generous are encouraged to use she/her. My hairdresser uses she/her for me, so there.

[DonnaT]

My problem with new pronouns such as zie/zir/zirs and xe/xir/xirs is not knowing how to pronounce them.

[KimberlyS]

I was wonder that also Donna.

kimberlys

[Ralitsa]

I know, that is a struggle right? So I use zie/zir/zirs and I tell everyone that it's pronounced like she/her/hers but with a "z".
The ones with x's I have no idea how to pronounce them, so I just hope that if someone is using that selection then xe will tell me how to pronounce it.

In my own case, I totally get that these are new and takes some getting used to so I'm more than happy to help people understand the usage and talk about pronunciation, etc. I'm guessing that a lot of people aren't comfortable asking the questions, and I'm hesitant to start giving speeches without invitation, so then neither side wants to really start the conversation. I think you see that a lot.

[Lacey Hadley]

I'm a crossdresser or transvestite. In my day to day life I am a rather typical male, we are all special in our own ways, but in reality my day to day life I am a dude. So it's Mr., sir, he, him.

When I slip into my femme side and make the free and conscious choice to dress up in female clothing, shoes or boots and especially add makeup and hair (wig) I am now in my feminine role and I want to feel like a girl, enjoy the feeling of dressing like a girl. My thoughts of my femininity which are exclusive to me even if they are based in my or our general ideals of reality of what we see and understand as female in feelings, looks and ways we choose to act and as such I want to then be a madame, miss, her, she. Why would I not want to have female pronouns if I make the enjoyable and for me the stress reliving effort to dress as a girl? Why would I want to use pronouns of some senseless middle ground, which is really only Marxist based, anti western world fluff and of often grammatical gibberish? But if some others want to use such well so be it for you, just don't expect all people in society to understand or bend knee to your made up and fluffy/goofy pronouns. Sorry folks, but others have opinions and thoughts that can be just as valid as yours or mine even if you, me or we may not like them.

If I was to be out in public dressed as Lacey (such as in my avatar pic) and another person choose not to call me by feminine pronouns, am I going to fall to pieces and run away in tears? NO! why would I be so pathetically weak and give such a person the satisfaction that he/she made me upset? I could endeavour to correct them in my hopes they would understand with me dressed as a girl why I would like to be called by female pronouns, or I can just walk away. in all my feminine role escaping beauty.

[Ralitsa]

so I'm not quite sure I follow your argument Lacey.
Are you saying that my choice to use zie/zir/zirs is anti-western gibberish and is not valid, so you will apply to me whatever pronoun you think I "should" have?

Because I'm pretty sure you can guess what I will say to that!

[Lacey Hadley]

Ralitsa,

I never said you can't use whatever pronouns you want to describe yourself. It's your life and your direction of interactions with the greater society. But you can't expect others to call you by these which are only recent and yes progressive/leftist led made up pronouns.

The world is binary folks, man and woman, male and female and no matter what you or I or others say or desire personally, this greater society will not acquiesce to what is a constructed social issue.

If you are a crossdresser or feel you are trans (cross) sexual (sexed) / trans (cross) gender (male or female) why would you not want to use common pronouns to define male (he, him, his) or female ( she, her, hers)?

Like I said above, when dressed enfemme (which truthfully for crossdressers is an illusion) I present myself as a woman and would hope others would be kind/tolerant enough to call me by feminine pronouns. When I'm in my normal male mode I would certainly expect others to see me as a genetic male and call me by male pronouns. Why would anyone not want the same?

If you are transgender you have made the choice to follow the gender you have come to see as you. If it's a trans female, then so be it, you will surely find the general society use feminine pronouns and words to interact and describe you as a trans female. If you are a trans male, you can expect the same from society. In other words you picked a lane and society will tolerate (people please, spare us the acceptance word, as nobody can be made to accept others, but society can make us tolerate others) any of you/us as long as you/we stay in such lane.

So YES! Ralitsa, you can use any of these made up, modern pronouns (none are more than what 10 years old). I never denied you or told that you can't Ralitsa. Again in all good spirit given to you by myself here, I say it's your life and choice. But you have no expectations that the greater society will use these non-binary pronouns.

Tens of thousands of human generations have imprinted permanently on our minds the sexual binary, male or female. Modern times has seen us tolerate the idea that transgender persons exist, for whatever reason or explanation one may use. Transgender or transsexual means by definition to cross over to the other gender/sex. Not this non-binary stuff that I guarantee society will not put up with for much longer, because it's a social illness.

I'm probably speaking too much here, I fear most here will not agree with me and will be emotionally driven to anger at my words. We no longer seem to have much a society in the western that can talk about such issues without hissy fits! Maybe I should have just deleted this reply, but as a mature crossdresser who for decades struggled with this side of me, did not see that as one who enjoys the full one CD'er look including hair, makeup and fashions that have I gained tolerance by society.

I fear all this modern progressive (actually it's regressive) led, social construct of anything LGBT and such that a coming backlash will set back much of everything all of us have gained via tolerance and hurt us due to this illness of progressive culture and activist LGBT stuff. BTW why are trans people in that label? Sexuality and gender are two different things.

To end use whatever pronouns you wish, just don't expect the greater society to just accept this non-binary stuff. Again when I am dressed as Lacey, I present as female and again would appreciate society to use female pronouns, but I'm not going to go off and cry if somebody was not kind or tolerant enough to use such on my femme side when dressed. As a dude I naturally present as a male and as such in the real world we live in as binary I expect to be called by male pronouns. Everything else is all made up and what has become a liberal/progressive attack on a MAJORITY sized sane society.

I fear this progressive /LGBT activism soon enough ticking off that large society to where I as a simple crossdresser who wants no part of this will get caught up in this and my life turned back from my own hard and long fought to understand acceptance of honestly my mental issues of crossdressing and as a tiny percentage of the population to thus losing the won tolerance that I and all of us have received over time to be pushed back into the dark for me crossdresser's closet. AND I WANT NO SUCH PART OF THIS ACTIVIST MOVEMENT THAT WILL IN TIME HURT ME/US!


I can go on but I'm sure I'm only ticking off others here so my points are said without malice but to foster thoughts.

Sorry if I trigged any of you who are of a mindset to be triggered as such. I'm just presenting my point of view and using a greater understanding of how a majority society will respond to such rabid activism of what is feel is social media virtue signalling and progressive (again actually regressive) made up stuff. PEACE OUT!

[Diana Michelle]

Lots to unwrap here but first a personal note. There was a time in my life I may have been "triggered" reading or hearing something like this, now I just SMH.

"The world is binary folks"
I know more than a few that see the world this way. Black and White, Right and Wrong, Good and Bad, Left and Right, need I go on? Personally I prefer to see the world in living color and embrace the diversity that offers. I think most would agree the basis of western civilization is Judeo Christian values and beliefs. If I remember my Catechism one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shall not kill" yet there is such a thing as "justified homicide" in the law. How does one rectify that in a binary world?

In other words you picked a lane and society will tolerate (people please, spare us the acceptance word, as nobody can be made to accept others, but society can make us tolerate others) any of you/us as long as you/we stay in such lane."
I "tolerate" the line at the Secretary of State when I need to renew my drivers license but I "accept" the fact I need one to drive. Is this how you view tolerance and acceptance? If not would you please define how you see them here?

Lacey I understand you are Canadian so this may not be applicable to you but the Declaration of Independence states "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." Now I realize the Declaration of Independence is not an "official" US document however it is the basis upon the United States came to life and its ratification on July 4, 1776 is considered the birth of the United States so IMO it carries some weight. The "pursuit of happiness" is not a matter of tolerance or acceptance rather a right endowed by our Creator.

"Ralitsa, you can use any of these made up, modern pronouns (none are more than what 10 years old)"
100 years ago no one would have ever dreamed of the laptop computer, cell phones, email, text messages, the internet, etc. yet here we are in 2022 and are all are everyday items to us. As things become mainstream words need to be created for them. Can you picture the looks you would have gotten even 20 years ago if you said to someone "I just Googled it and ..."

"Tens of thousands of human generations have imprinted permanently on our minds the sexual binary, male or female."
There was a time it was thought the sun revolved around the earth, the earth was flat, Mars was populated with little green men. There may be one or two out there that still believe one or more however I think you will agree science has disproved these. Same as science has proven the existence of the "true" transsexual. I am sure some are questioning my use of quotation marks with the word true here. There are varying degrees of being transgendered and they run the gambit. When I say true transsexual I am referring to one born with the gender markers of one sex yet are in actually the other gender. I realize some still question or even deny this can happen but from personal experience I can tell you it does for I am one of those people. Please don't get me wrong here! I am not denying the other degrees of transgenderism for they do exist. Nor am I belittling anyone who falls anywhere on that scale! My point is there is a difference between what I call the "wannabe" TG and the actual one.

"Modern times has seen us tolerate the idea that transgender persons exist, for whatever reason or explanation one may use. Transgender or transsexual means by definition to cross over to the other gender/sex. Not this non-binary stuff that I guarantee society will not put up with for much longer, because it's a social illness."
OK here you hit a soft spot with me. Your use of "tolerate" here implies to me that you question that fact this is an actual thing. I can attest they exist for I am one and know more than a few who are as well. I will grant you there are a hell of a lot more "wannabes" and those lost in the "Pink Fog" than actual candidates for GCS. I cannot explain why they are as they are but I also can't explain the theory of gravity. I accept it exists but I cannot explain it.

It has been almost 44 years since I came out to my family that I was transsexual and informed them of my plans to transition and have gender changing surgery. Although I still remember what was said word for word I am not going to repeat them here as there are more than a couple that would get me banned for life from Kim and rightfully so. My father was perhaps the loudest and in essence told me if I pursued those plans I was no longer part of the family. We did eventually reconcile and he and I had more than one long talk about my being transgendered. More than once he told me he didn't understand why I was that way but he came to accept me for who I was. He even pointed to my siblings who shared the gene pool as I did yet were "normal" heterosexuals. Honestly I never had an answer to that and told him I really didn't 100% understand why me and it was happening to me. I did always tell him while I didn't totally understand why I never regretted for a single second my decisions and I was in a far better place than I would have been had I not taken the path I did. I even told him more than once I probably wouldn't still be around had I taken the path others thought was "right" for me rather than the one was actually right for me.

"We no longer seem to have much a society in the western that can talk about such issues without hissy fits!"
Hissy fits? OMG! I don't think I have heard that term since my grandmother passed away back in 1998! By hissy fit are you referring to government officials who threaten companies with punitive legislation because they speak out against discriminatory legislation? Perhaps you are referring to individuals who refuse to bake a wedding cake because the couple doesn't conform to their religious beliefs? Maybe you are talking about banning books because it makes certain individuals uncomfortable? Or is it possibly people who assault a vestige of democracy because they disagree with the outcome of a lawfully held election? Please inform us what you define as a "hissy fit?"

"Everything else is all made up and what has become a liberal/progressive attack on a MAJORITY sized sane society."
You actually use the word "majority" here and imply it in other places Lacey yet you don't cite anything to back it up. No surveys, no studies, not even an unscientific poll! I have nothing to disprove your statement other than personal experiences and observations and those tell me otherwise. I am unaware of any studies showing how many accept and support the transgendered community. If you are aware of one please enlighten me. Perhaps it is the majority in the circles you run in but it isn't in the ones I do. I'm also curious as what you define as the "sane society?"

I recently passed the 40th anniversary of what was called at the time SRS. Times have changed and acceptance of the TG community has grown immensely over those 40 years as more come out and more suddenly come face to face with the reality of transgenderism in their own lives as a family member or friend comes out. I will grant you the level of acceptance is far greater in younger generations however I question your use of "majority."

Same as I opened I'm going to close on a personal note. Ralista I can understand and fully appreciate the frustration of being misgendered be it an honest mistake, an insult, or something in between. I'm reminded of the old sitcom Maude. I can see Bea Arthur answering the phone, "No this is Mrs Findlay, Mr Findlay's voice isn't this deep." Personally I don't see the need for a 3rd or more sets of pronouns however if someone asks me to address them by other than the traditional she or he I will do so out of respect. To me there are far greater issues facing the LGBTQ community out there that require addressing now.