Insight, comments, suggestions...please

[JillJill (SO)]

SO here. Years ago, I discovered a shoebox of panties in my husband's closet. Didn't think much of it. Figured he had a harmless panty fetish. No big deal. Fast forward to Feb 2005, I discovered his long term affair with a co-worker. July 2010, I discovered that my husband is not only a full-blown cd'er (lingerie, heels, wigs, makeup), but that he views (...) nightly after the kids and I go to bed.

<snip>

Unbeknownst to me, he has had a secret fantasy life parallel to his real life for our entire marriage which originated during puberty. His secrets exposed, he admits that he was never able to bridge the gap between the fantasy in his head and our real sex life. Needless to say, we didn't have much of a sex life which I foolishly attributed to his work stress, thought he had a low sex drive, etc. I thought we had a good marriage despite his disinterest in sex with me. Foolish, I know. We are now on the brink of divorce. His long term affair, which I discovered back in 05, caused unbelievable pain to me. I tried so hard to reconcile our marriage, but he was not interested. He swept everything under the rug, including my confusion, pain, insecurity, etc, but was happy to stay in the marriage (we have 3 kids, nice house, etc.) He passively blames me for his affair because I "do not wear dresses" or exude a confident sexy attitude to his liking...the way his affair partner did. We actually recently tried to repair our marriage. But, he quickly abandoned his attempts because I was unable to incorporate his cd'ing into our sexual relationship. So he is not interested in an intimate relationship with me. It seems he cannot enjoy sex unless it has one of his fantasy elements included: dom/sub, denial, cd'ing. So, cd'ing is only a part of my husband's varried sexual interests. But, all of it excludes me, his wife. It seems his primary relationship is with himself...and his world of fantasy...and self-indulgence. A world I do not fit into for a couple of reasons: 1. I am real, thus cannot compete with fantasy, thus he is dissatisfied. 2. I find his sexual interests a turn off and some quite disturbing. Although, I have never been critical or judgemental. However, due to some of the characteristics of his long-standing hidden sexual fantasy life, I worry that this is all harmful to him in the ways he protects and preserves the fantasy life over his real life...wife and kids. 'It' has been a factor negatively effecting and undermining our entire marriage. And, it seems we are on the brink of divorce. Not sure what I am hoping for in posting all this. I am just so distressed by everything...his neglecting me for so many years, secrets our entire marriage, his affair hurt me in the worst way possible and he did nothing in the aftermath to help me or the marriage heal. And, recently learning the depth and breadth of his secret fantasy life and feminine personna. Typing this...it seems glaring that I should just move forward with divorce. But, I do love and care about him.


- - Post edited by SL.

[DonnaT]

Jill, there are many different sexual fetishes.

You'll find that the ratio of non-CDing men (women) who are into these fetishes is no different than the ratio of CDs into these fetishes.

Many of us crossdress because we enjoy the way the clothes feel, and how it makes us feel in general, without bringing sex into the picture.

One could have been just as easily married to a hunter who had a sexual fetish with respect to bondage, S&M, leather, amputees, etc.. You wouldn't label all hunters as people with sexual fetishes would you?

There's nothing wrong with fantasies, porn, masturbation, and the like.

The problem is when these things take over, and causes problems your relationships. Counseling may be needed in this regard, but one has to want to change, to want to improve their relationships.

[JillJill (SO)]

Thank you, Donna, for your additional comments.
Sorry I originally posted under the wrong topic. Thanks for your patience.

I think you are right. I think my husband's emersion in his fantasy porn world has certainly had a negative impact on his relationships...namely with me, his wife, and likely, eventually, his children. It breaks my heart because 'this' is certainly never what I wanted in my marriage with my husband...to be in this place we are now.

We have about 4 sessions of marriage counselling under out belts so far. But, our issues are so complex, namely I am in a bad place to start from...at the end of my rope...due to his long term affair and the ways he mismanaged the aftermath, thus injuring me further. So painful. It's like I am so spent already that I don't have it in me to put myself out there 100% only to have my efforts be futile again. Like you said, HE has to want this and be willing to do the work. So far, he is not demonstrating this at all. He was all into 'it' and into me when he thought I would indulge his fetishes/fantasy/etc in the bedroom. But, he doesn't want a relationship with me if I cannot participate in dom/sub or denial scenarios or be enthusiastic about sex while he is cross dressed. Maybe we just shouldn't be together. And, I just need to accept that and let him and the marriage go again. Only, this time, truely separating our lives...making it formal and final with divorce.

I have the desire to reconcile my marriage if it can be something healthy with mutual trust, love, care, and respect. But, I am not optimistic. I do not think he can be what I need in a marriage: faithful, trustworthy, honest, etc. His cd'ing/fantasy world is much too important to him and, comparatively, I am not as important or enough for him.

Thank you again.
-Jill

[Jessica North]

Hi Jill,

I certainly do feel for you and your children, considering the situation you have described.

I think about cross-dressing every day of my life. It is ingrained in my being and will never go away. Many of us have little side fantasies about dom/sub or other things, but ultimately even amongst this group of like minded "girls"... we are still totally different individuals.

Having my wife's support and acceptance of my cross-dressing is a huge blessing to me. I only share that side of myself with her. My children are unaware of my second-self and we both prefer it stays that way. I don't find any real excitement in porn, but wouldn't mind involving the CD'ing in our sex life.

But what it really comes down for me is priorities and family. My wife and kids are the only thing I put before my cross-dressing. Nothing is more import to me, as much as I love my femme persona. That is how I choose to live my life and have never regretted it. But each of us have to make that decision for ourselves.

Reading your story, I can't imagine my wife putting up with what you described. If I were your husband, I would expect you to file for divorce, especially because of the infidelity. But again, I say that from my point of view. Ultimately you have to decide what is best for you and your children. I hope you can come to some sort of peace in your life, whatever path you choose.

Jessica

[Kimberly Kael]

I'm sorry you've gotten to where you are, Jill.

Donna is likely correct in stating that cross-dressing isn't really the source of any of the problems you describe. It sounds he like finds a whole host of social taboos exciting and the forbidden nature might even be the common thread. So where does that get you? He's still wreaking havoc in your relationship and until he's willing and able to own up to his mistakes and work with you toward a compromise things just aren't going to get any better. I'm sorry you've been through all of this.

We can doubtless help you understand things he might enjoy about cross-dressing, but the root problem of his selfish behavior and inability to take responsibility are going to plague you until you learn to work together. I hope the therapy sessions provide you with an opportunity to practice the techniques you'll need to find a middle-ground that works for both of you, and allow him to earn your trust back over time.

Best wishes, and please do feel free to vent or otherwise use us as a sounding board.

[Davita]

Am I like hubby? Nope. Should you get a divorce? Yep. The kids won't be any happier with him later if he just gets more self centered and wrapped up in his sexual fantasies.

Hubby sounds like dressing is all about sex and nothing to do with gender concerns. However, it could be a "phase" where the sexual aspects are the concern versus the dressing being the concern. For some people the relationship between dressing and sexual pleasure never change. In others, as I said, it's a phase. Each of us, every person in the world, needs to be analyzed individually; you can't just make a blanket statement about any of us. He could change or not -- so far it sounds like "or not"

[Vivian]

Hi Jill,

My relationship with my wife is based on mutual respect, loyalty, compassion, kindness and love. The most important thing in my life is her health and happiness. She feels the same way about me. I learned that when I came out to her as a CDer after 14 years of marriage. She accepted it and we have parameters where I can and can't dress up.
Cross dressing has nothing to do with our sex life. I have always believed that sex is your opportunity the make your wife/significant other feel like they are in heaven for a short period of time thus it isn't about me. It is about her. She also knows that I have had girlfriends and boyfriends but that is in no way part of our relationship now.
This is of course not the first marriage for both of us. We had practice on how not to be. I have what I call, "the craziness" and need to be reeled in by my wife at times. When she is doing it I know ultimately it is for my own good. I have been on many continents and done the most dangerous things you could ever imagine. I can't tell you what, or how to do anything, I can only tell you my personal experiences. It would be agrandizing of me to tell you what you should do. Remember, I think there is someone out there who is madly in love with you forever, you just might not have found them yet.
When I was an adult, my sisters and I would always tell each other that we wished our parents, who couldn't stand each other, would have gotten divorced when we were kids and spared us all the misery.
Best of luck
Hugs Vivian

[Sammy C. (SO)]

Welcome to the Forum! I am also new to the Forum :D I think what you have is not normal . I dont think any wife should take that kind of treatment. My hubby basically came out to me at thanksgiving, and he now is a better husband, father, and lover! He is new at this and what most people here like to call the "pink fog" other words kid at a candy store. Everything is so new to him, and since I have accepted this part of his life he doesnt know what to do next he wants it all. One thing you have to understand about CD'ing is that it will never go away that its ingrained in them, and to accept the man you have to accept the dressing its really just clothes anyway. Who said who had to wear what? Did God? I dont think at this point in your life your hubby wants a wife or children, and I would ask him personally. You need to find someone you will love you for you! But to really answer your question No I dont think his behavior mimicks any form of anyone I met here.

[Anita]

Hi Jill--
You have decisions to make, but ideally you won't be making them during the holiday weeks. I hope you can enjoy the holidays to some extent.

Your husband sounds like he has hit a dark place. Your four sessions are at least an attempt to bridge the gap, and you can say you did explore avenues for trying to mend the marriage.

It's the breaches in trust that are hardest to hear about in this story. They are the hardest things to overlook. I used to think that divorce was a preferred solution to situations like yours, but I'm not so sure of that now, in my own mind. If he is still capable of being a good father, it may end up being better to try to have a household.

My younger self felt that it was almost always better to have two households, and new partners for the parents. I know a lot of divorced parents! Some of the new households thrived. On the other hand, I've seen at least one couple stay in one household for the kids, while each of them had other partners. (Radical, but this has worked for them.)

Like I said, you've got some choices ahead. I trust you have a network around you to help you do that, whether family, church, or a local therapist. You do have support here, too.

[Paula G]

I am very sorry to hear of your situation, from both my own personal experience, and what I have read on this and other fora, I would say that your husband is not at all typical. Most Cross Dressers being more in touch with their feminine nature than most men are happiest in a secure loving monogamous relationship. For most of us there may have been an element of sexual excitement initially however this is something that diminishes with time while the compulsion to dress does not. Mostly we want to be accepted as people, enjoying the affection of those we love, our partners our children and our families, many of us sacrifice a lot of our cross dressing impulses in order to protect these relationships.

For a partnership to really work both parties have to make some sacrifices, parents have to give of themselves in many ways to make their children’s lives as good as possible. This is how families are meant to work, but both parents need to want to make it work.

To me your situation is so different to what most of us have experienced I am not sure that our advise will be any more relevant than any one else’s. What we can offer is love compassion support and friendship. While I personally tend to believe that marriages should be saved wherever possible, and that often the help of a counsellor can help, both parties do need to be aiming for the same outcome.

You have all our best wishes for the future as well as for this very special season.

[CJ]

Hi Jill,

First, let me just remind you that, although anyone here can offer you insights, comments, and suggestions, nobody will be doing so as a certified marital counsellor or therapist. If YOU believe--and when I say "you," I mean BOTH you AND your hubby--that your marriage can be saved, then you need to seek professional help.

My own take on your predicament is the following. You're facing at least three different obstacles right now; 1. Your husband's extra-marital adventure, 2. Your husband's immersion in a CD fantasy world to the exclusion of his real-life relationship, and 3. Your husband's unwillingness (or inability) to take responsibility for his role in the jeopardizing of your marriage. Seems to me that your task, Jill, is now to figure out whether or not you can, on the one hand, overcome any one (or more) of these obstacles and, on the other, whether or not doing so would be enough to save your marriage.

You say you love him but, although that's obviously a necessary component of a successful relationship or marriage, is it really a sufficient one? In other words, what are you willing to let slide by in order to save your marriage? The fact that he was unfaithful? That he wants his fantasies made real? That it seems as though he doesn't care about you or how you feel?

And here we are, again--yes, we've seen it before--in that place where one person struggles to keep her union alive despite truly irreconcilable differences in an attempt to avoid a failed marriage, thus consigning both halves to unhappiness and regret. I'm not suggesting that the weight of action now rests squarely only on your shoulders, Jill, but it nevertheless seems to me as though your hubby wants to stand by the hand he's played and your turn's up.

My suggestion: think carefully about whether or not you would be making yourself even more miserable, Jill, by choosing to save your marriage in its current state rather than giving yourself the opportunity to find a more lasting, authentic, and solid happiness elsewhere.

I'm sorry you're going through this, Jill. I know it can't be easy. Especially if you still have feelings for him. Chances are, he's finding this difficult, too.

Best of luck to you both. I hope you both find a road to happiness, side by side or not.

Love,
CJ

[Absaroka]

Jill I'm sorry to hear about this. I can't really improve much on what's been said, especially CJ's post. There is really no way any of us should know what you should do.

A lot of wives say that the deception was the most difficult part of the CDing when they found out. And an affair is also terribly hard to deal with.

I'm going to disagree with a bunch of the folks here. Often CDIng is about sex. And when you read about it you sometimes find that a lot of crossdressers tend towards self absorbtion. There is a joke about crossdresser-parties-the men sit around getting in touch with their feminine side while the wives cook and do the dishes......

I remember talking to my therapist and him telling me that the best thing I could do to help my wife accept this aspect of me had to do with other stuff, like just washing the dishes and being more considerate, and letting her know that she didn't need to participate in anything she didn't want to. In her case this turned into mostly don't ask don't tell-she really doesn't want much to do with this.

I guess my reaction to your post does concern what isn't in your post. When you remove sex and deception from the picture, what is the rest of the marriage like? What was it like before the unpleasant truth came to light? There are many married couples for whom marriage is not about sex. There are marriages where the partners aren't sexually active with each other very much, and may in fact have a girlfriend or boyfriend on the side. I can tell you that there have been periods where my wife has not been interested in sex for a long time, and that I used to joke that masturbation saved my marriage as it kept me from having an affair.

So anyway, what is the rest of the marriage like? Do you enjoy living with each other if sex was not an issue and you could be assured that not only there would be no more lies but that you would be okay with him taking care of himself sexually in other ways? Would you be unable to accept this?

As I said, no one here can tell you what to do.

[JillJill (SO)]

I just want to thank you ALL for your replies.

You all have helped me get better clarity about my husband and situation.

[JillJill (SO)]

Absaroka, in regard to your point about cd'ing being/not being about sex. It seems to be for my husband as he nightly views porn involving sex between men who are cd'd. It's homosexual in act... between 2+ men who are cd'd during sex. The lingerie is a fetish item for my husband and it's presence is sexually stimulating. Having said that, my husband also reports that he enjoys simply relaxing, cd'd, with a cup of coffee in the morning, which does not sound like a sexual experience per se. So, I am very confused. Seems that cd'ing/lingerie serves different purposes for him...both intensely sexual, and non-sexual as well.

In regard to our marriage in general, here's how it went: After discovering his long term affair, I tried my heart out to reconcile the marriage. Eventually, I figured out that he was not interested in me or the marriage at all, but remaining married had its advantages for him. I backed off, stopped trying to reconcile the marriage alone. I put the ball in his court, hoping that he would do something of substance toward reconcilliation. Days, weeks, months and even years went by. Nothing. Yet, we were able to be very good 'roommates' together and had transitioned into a partnership in co-parenting our kids. Our family dynamics have been very good and my kids have remained unscathed from all our adult issues. I am so happy about this, that I had planned to simply co-parent together until our youngest is launched (2016)...and then decide what to do from there. BUT, then I discovered the nightly secret cd'ing in our basement, his broad and complex sexual fantasy world, etc back in July. He shocked me back in Oct suggesting we reconcille our marriage. Interesting that his sudden interest in ME coincided with my plan to file for divorce. I cannot help but suspect that my husband has half-heartedly tried to reconcile because he fears divorce and all the negative fallout for him. It's in HIS best interest to remain in the marriage. After several failed attempts at incorporating his sexual fantasies into our relationship, he has retreated back to his nightly fantasy/porn/masturbation sessions...and returned to cd'ing in the basement. And, we have essentially resumed our nice partnership in co-parenting. But, this time, it is not working for me. His recent attempts to reconcile our marriage have stirred up many (bad, painful) emotions associated with his infidelity. And, this sexual relationship he has with himself and the internet...all feels like more infidelity. He has a sex life, but I am not a part of it. I cannot go on 'as is'. Plus, I am very worried that one of my kids will walk in on him in some stage of cd/porn/mast session. So, as far as I am concerned, it has to stop in our house.

We are in marriage counselling trying to sort all this out....

[Absaroka]

Jill I don't know how old you and your husband are but for my wife and I sex changed with age. Just as many older couples find that cuddling in bed replaces wild passion, I find that the sexual aspect of cdiing is often manifested just in relaxation and nothing else at this point. I've posted this elsewhere here, but I think the either/or aspect of sex is a false dichotomy. Something can be simultaneously sexual and non sexual, just like a hot shower is about getting clean and about other stuff, or fishing is about getting food and other stuff, and so on. For me at this point cding is often like a cup of warm tea on the porch, and need not lead to dinner, to use the food sex metaphor that so many like.

Your husband sounds like he wants to be married but not too married, and I suspect there are far more issues than sex and cding going on. My only advice is to keep working with the counselor, in an effort to figure out what is right for the two of you. I'm sorry it's come to this.