Hi Jill,
I don't believe that your husbands behavior is typical of cd'ers, but neither is it too hard to understand and/or explain. Of course his reluctance to get a divorce is simply obvious, on the economic grounds alone. A divorce is ridiculously expensive, between the two lawyers and everything else it will cost upwards of $50k, so clearly he wants to avoid that. Anybody would. In addition to the money, he will most likely be the one moving out of the house and establishing a new life, which is a major pain in the neck. Obviously he also wants to avoid that. So there is a major financial incentive for him to keep the marriage "on the books" even if it's in name only. Now I'm not saying that this is his only reason, I really hope that he wants to maintain the marriage for your sake and that of the kids as well.
The porn/masturbation problem exists for a huge number of guys, I would guess the majority, although I can't say I have any real statistics. So that is not really so unusual, and in itself I wouldn't say it's cause for particular concern.
The infidelity issue is a major problem, but even worse is the failure to adequately resolve it. I suppose one could accept a single indiscretion (I'm not sure I would though) but it would have to be followed by sincere repentance and an incredible effort at reconciliation.
So what we have so far, although I probably wouldn't say that he is significantly more perverted than everyone else in the world, it does seem like he is not adequately committed to your marriage. This is not so much different than the case of a serious alcoholic, who spends all his time and money down at the bar instead of with his wife and kids. Just like the alcoholic would really like his wife to come down to the bar with him, you husband wants to be with you only on his terms. I've known some very admirable women who were married to the most despicable drunks for a lot of years. I doubt that they got any emotional satisfaction from their marriage, but they sure did prove that they were tough, and determined, and unbelievably committed.
He will not change until he wants to change. Does he want to change or does he want to avoid the costs entailed with a divorce? Do you know how to make him want to change? Men can be really major fools about women, they've been known to get themselves killed fighting about women. Probably you've seen that movie years ago "My big fat greek wedding" in which the wife says "Men are the head of the house, but women are the neck and we turn the head any way we want." This is very true, in the right situations. It's very likely that you have the power to influence his behavior in a large way, because he only has one wife (I think). Nagging is not the way though, nor is lectures or threats. In my own case, the answer is chocolate chip cookies with walnuts. A good counsellor could help you find the answer, but I don't know what can help you find a good counsellor (I've never met one). The only advice I can give is to go find an old lady who has been married 50 years to a sailor and talk to her. After all, none of this is new, it's been going on since the beginning of time.
There is no question that you have a bad deal. The only real question left is whether divorce is going to make it better, or worse.
I know that I sound pretty depressing. I don't believe there is any value in pretending, or posturing, or sugar coating the facts. When everything is correctly defined and identified, then it's easier (though not less painful) to find the solution.
Did anybody warn you that there are a lot of engineers around here?
Insight, comments, suggestions...please
Moderators: KimberlyS, Eileen (SO)
-
JillJill (SO)
- Miss Crystal Goddess
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:15 am
Hi Ralista,
Yes, you are right. I am sure that the financial losses and loss of home/lifestyle are significant factors influencing my husband's choice to stay in the marriage. However, I think the biggest factor is that he fears all his secret life 'dirty laundry' will get aired, including his long term affair, cd'ing, and the array of perverse porn/activity he indulges in which I don't think I can name here because it will get edited out by the mods, I think. My husband is held in the highest regard by all who know him. He presents as the most genuine, honest, loyal, moral, trustworthy man of the highest character. His image is that of a 'good man'...'good husband'...'good family man.' It would kill him to have the truth come out about 'who' he really is. His mom finding out...his family...our friends...neighbors...co-workers. THAT is what is primarily keeping him in the marriage. He takes pride in his image...this image he has worked hard to achieve and maintain. I am not saying he is a 'bad' man at all. Actually, somehow, in all this, I still believe his is mostly the man I married whom I was attracted to because of these qualites and many others. And, I am sure our kids are also a huge factor contributing to his choice to stay. Although, it is quite ironic, or at least contradictory, that he claims to have our kids best interest at heart, yet he has made choices along the way which have been clearly risky and would likely jeopardize their stable, healthy childhoods and potentially damage them emotionally. So, I have a hard time believing that their well-being takes precidence, since his actions say otherwise. Having said that, I do believe he wants to avoid divorce because he does not want to do 'that' to our kids.
I would agree that most men likely engage in porn/masturbation. However, there are degrees. It is the men who replace their real SO relationships with porn/mast which is a problem. Their energies are going out of the relationship. This takes it's toll on the relationship. I recently read that 36% of divorce litigation involves porn. And, our counselor told me that it is not uncommon for people to divorce over porn. I don't think men realize the 'message' porn sends to their SO. Just because something is at your fingertips does not mean it is ok. I imagine there are couples out there who, together, engage...or maybe it is ok with the SO that her man engages without her. But, when porn/fantasy secretly replaces the SO, how is she supposed to feel about that? How about betrayed, unimportant, unattractive, undesireable, disrespected, replacable, unloved, uncared for, etc. The 'messages' are all very hurtful. Really, when you think about it, what I am discribing is similar to an affair in many ways...minus a flesh/blood affair partner. I am particularly sensitive to this because my husband DID have an affair. And, quite honestly, his emersion in porn/fantasy/masturbation feels much the same...minus a flesh/blood affair partner. There ARE other women and men in his life whom he is sexual with, whom he spends time with, whom he is sexually stimulated by and brought to orgasm with, whom he trades intimate time with his wife for. There have been countless nights...thousands...where I was abandoned in bed and left alone so that he could go sexually entertain himself with other men/woman in fantasy online. Maybe they are not flesh/blood, but they are still 'other woman' to me.
My husbands affair was just more of the same, except that it crossed over into 3-dimensions and there was a flesh/blood woman whom he physcially had sex with. When their affair ended, he resumed his secret fantasy life online. It was like one continuum. Flat screen...gone flesh/blood...gone flat screen again. To me, because of what I have been through, the secret affair and his secret online sex life all feels the same.
Funny you should mention the alcoholic scenario as that is an analogy I used with my therapist. I told her that when I participate (sexually) with the cd'ing and/or other extreme fantasy stuff, I feel like I am being a drinking buddy to an alcoholic. The alcohol (cd'ing, etc) is #1..the focal piece...the center of the interaction. I am peripheral...in an indulging, supporting role. This makes for a horrible experience in that it lacks so much of what I enjoy about sex.
You think your post was depressing!! LOL! I think mine tops it!
We are still in marriage counseling...and the therapist is good.
My gut is screaming to 'dump this man!' for SO MANY reasons, but there is this tiny, faint voice which keeps telling me to give him a chance.
So, I am still hanging in there.
Yes, you are right. I am sure that the financial losses and loss of home/lifestyle are significant factors influencing my husband's choice to stay in the marriage. However, I think the biggest factor is that he fears all his secret life 'dirty laundry' will get aired, including his long term affair, cd'ing, and the array of perverse porn/activity he indulges in which I don't think I can name here because it will get edited out by the mods, I think. My husband is held in the highest regard by all who know him. He presents as the most genuine, honest, loyal, moral, trustworthy man of the highest character. His image is that of a 'good man'...'good husband'...'good family man.' It would kill him to have the truth come out about 'who' he really is. His mom finding out...his family...our friends...neighbors...co-workers. THAT is what is primarily keeping him in the marriage. He takes pride in his image...this image he has worked hard to achieve and maintain. I am not saying he is a 'bad' man at all. Actually, somehow, in all this, I still believe his is mostly the man I married whom I was attracted to because of these qualites and many others. And, I am sure our kids are also a huge factor contributing to his choice to stay. Although, it is quite ironic, or at least contradictory, that he claims to have our kids best interest at heart, yet he has made choices along the way which have been clearly risky and would likely jeopardize their stable, healthy childhoods and potentially damage them emotionally. So, I have a hard time believing that their well-being takes precidence, since his actions say otherwise. Having said that, I do believe he wants to avoid divorce because he does not want to do 'that' to our kids.
I would agree that most men likely engage in porn/masturbation. However, there are degrees. It is the men who replace their real SO relationships with porn/mast which is a problem. Their energies are going out of the relationship. This takes it's toll on the relationship. I recently read that 36% of divorce litigation involves porn. And, our counselor told me that it is not uncommon for people to divorce over porn. I don't think men realize the 'message' porn sends to their SO. Just because something is at your fingertips does not mean it is ok. I imagine there are couples out there who, together, engage...or maybe it is ok with the SO that her man engages without her. But, when porn/fantasy secretly replaces the SO, how is she supposed to feel about that? How about betrayed, unimportant, unattractive, undesireable, disrespected, replacable, unloved, uncared for, etc. The 'messages' are all very hurtful. Really, when you think about it, what I am discribing is similar to an affair in many ways...minus a flesh/blood affair partner. I am particularly sensitive to this because my husband DID have an affair. And, quite honestly, his emersion in porn/fantasy/masturbation feels much the same...minus a flesh/blood affair partner. There ARE other women and men in his life whom he is sexual with, whom he spends time with, whom he is sexually stimulated by and brought to orgasm with, whom he trades intimate time with his wife for. There have been countless nights...thousands...where I was abandoned in bed and left alone so that he could go sexually entertain himself with other men/woman in fantasy online. Maybe they are not flesh/blood, but they are still 'other woman' to me.
My husbands affair was just more of the same, except that it crossed over into 3-dimensions and there was a flesh/blood woman whom he physcially had sex with. When their affair ended, he resumed his secret fantasy life online. It was like one continuum. Flat screen...gone flesh/blood...gone flat screen again. To me, because of what I have been through, the secret affair and his secret online sex life all feels the same.
Funny you should mention the alcoholic scenario as that is an analogy I used with my therapist. I told her that when I participate (sexually) with the cd'ing and/or other extreme fantasy stuff, I feel like I am being a drinking buddy to an alcoholic. The alcohol (cd'ing, etc) is #1..the focal piece...the center of the interaction. I am peripheral...in an indulging, supporting role. This makes for a horrible experience in that it lacks so much of what I enjoy about sex.
You think your post was depressing!! LOL! I think mine tops it!
We are still in marriage counseling...and the therapist is good.
My gut is screaming to 'dump this man!' for SO MANY reasons, but there is this tiny, faint voice which keeps telling me to give him a chance.
So, I am still hanging in there.
-
Gillian
- Miss Platinum Goddess
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:27 am
- Location: Alberta, Canada
Interesting how someone can come across as an upstanding person in the community and have such a dark side. I know of a family where he was molesting the children, and when it came out everyone initially sided with him, because he was such a nice guy. For years his wife fought to get the truth out, and it hurt her own side of the families relationship with her. I empathize with you, you are in a difficult situation.
So I concluded that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to enjoy themselves as long as they can. People should eat and drink and enjoy the fruits of there labor, for these are gifts from God.
-
JillJill (SO)
- Miss Crystal Goddess
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:15 am
Gillian,
It is a little 'scary' when you discover something so incredibly unknown and shocking about someone you thought you knew. It changes your perspective on everything. Everyone becomes suspect of being fake, a fraud. You feel you cannot trust anyone or anything. The whole world sort of changes. This is not always a bad thing as it fosters an awareness which may be helpful in the future and moves you out of a place of naivitey and vulnerability to being fooled or hurt or shocked again. You realize that things are not always what they seem. So, you are more cautous and careful with yourself...and your heart.
Your child molestation story is tragic. Thankfully, I am not dealing with something like that.
Although, I have to say, I was totally broad-sided and in shock over discovering his long term affair nearly 6 yrs ago. I thought I was the luckiest wife in the world having such a genuine, honest, good man for a husband. I could not have imagined in my wildest dreams that he would be unfaithful. I cannot help but consider him a talented actor, an experienced manipulator, and a polished liar. All required to pull off a long term affair. Trust was brutally shattered. Of course, this all bleeds into and effects our current marital struggles. And, I think what is so strikingly disturbing about his choice to cheat is his lack of regard, not only for me, but for his kids. He HAD TO KNOW that if/when I found out, that an ugly divorce would likely follow...with our 3 kids in the middle of it. But, they didn't matter enough for him to make better choices...unselfish choices. He did what felt good to HIM. Period.
So, yes, I know what it is like to learn a shocking truth about someone. And, my husband has provided more than one shocking truth.
And, yes, much like the wife you described, NO ONE would ever believe my husband capable of the things he has done. But, honestly, I have never had any intention of exposing his secrets. I am not malicious by nature and I wish him no ill. If we divorce, it will be very amicable on my part. Not sure how nice he will be if it were to come down to divorce. I suspect he may 'turn' on me. He has in the past. The finality of the divorce will likely bring out the worst in him. He will likely resent me, find ways to blame me at least in his mind, etc. I am certainly not perfect, have flaws, have not always done things 'right' in my marriage. But, my heart was always in the right place. My intentions were/are good. Hence, my willingness to try and understand my husband and my hope for healing and good emotional health for him. I want him to be happy....with or without me. It would be nice if we could somehow pull a good, healthy, enduring marriage relationship out of this. But, as I have said before, I am not optimistic. But, I am not ready to give up yet.
Thank you for reading...and for your 'empathy'.
It is a little 'scary' when you discover something so incredibly unknown and shocking about someone you thought you knew. It changes your perspective on everything. Everyone becomes suspect of being fake, a fraud. You feel you cannot trust anyone or anything. The whole world sort of changes. This is not always a bad thing as it fosters an awareness which may be helpful in the future and moves you out of a place of naivitey and vulnerability to being fooled or hurt or shocked again. You realize that things are not always what they seem. So, you are more cautous and careful with yourself...and your heart.
Your child molestation story is tragic. Thankfully, I am not dealing with something like that.
Although, I have to say, I was totally broad-sided and in shock over discovering his long term affair nearly 6 yrs ago. I thought I was the luckiest wife in the world having such a genuine, honest, good man for a husband. I could not have imagined in my wildest dreams that he would be unfaithful. I cannot help but consider him a talented actor, an experienced manipulator, and a polished liar. All required to pull off a long term affair. Trust was brutally shattered. Of course, this all bleeds into and effects our current marital struggles. And, I think what is so strikingly disturbing about his choice to cheat is his lack of regard, not only for me, but for his kids. He HAD TO KNOW that if/when I found out, that an ugly divorce would likely follow...with our 3 kids in the middle of it. But, they didn't matter enough for him to make better choices...unselfish choices. He did what felt good to HIM. Period.
So, yes, I know what it is like to learn a shocking truth about someone. And, my husband has provided more than one shocking truth.
And, yes, much like the wife you described, NO ONE would ever believe my husband capable of the things he has done. But, honestly, I have never had any intention of exposing his secrets. I am not malicious by nature and I wish him no ill. If we divorce, it will be very amicable on my part. Not sure how nice he will be if it were to come down to divorce. I suspect he may 'turn' on me. He has in the past. The finality of the divorce will likely bring out the worst in him. He will likely resent me, find ways to blame me at least in his mind, etc. I am certainly not perfect, have flaws, have not always done things 'right' in my marriage. But, my heart was always in the right place. My intentions were/are good. Hence, my willingness to try and understand my husband and my hope for healing and good emotional health for him. I want him to be happy....with or without me. It would be nice if we could somehow pull a good, healthy, enduring marriage relationship out of this. But, as I have said before, I am not optimistic. But, I am not ready to give up yet.
Thank you for reading...and for your 'empathy'.
-
Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3344
- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:30 am
One of the descriptions of some CDs is simply that they manage to be their own "other woman". Many women, if they discover their husband has bought some lingerie that is obviously not for them, are not all that reassured the first time they discover it was for him and not another woman.
I'd continue to suggest working with the counselor. It may be that your husband has realized he wants to be married and that certain needs can not be met within the marriage, and is doing his best. Or it may be that he is manipulative, selfish, and an unsuitable partner. It will be very difficult to figure out. One thing you may have discovered here is that for many of us the decision of whether or not to tell our partners is one that can determine the future of the relationship, and that many of us are very apprehensive about this.
Some people are in fact also sex addicts. However this can be very difficult to ascertain, just as it can be very difficult to distinguish the problem drinker from an alcoholic or the drug abuser from a drug addict.
I'd continue to suggest working with the counselor. It may be that your husband has realized he wants to be married and that certain needs can not be met within the marriage, and is doing his best. Or it may be that he is manipulative, selfish, and an unsuitable partner. It will be very difficult to figure out. One thing you may have discovered here is that for many of us the decision of whether or not to tell our partners is one that can determine the future of the relationship, and that many of us are very apprehensive about this.
Some people are in fact also sex addicts. However this can be very difficult to ascertain, just as it can be very difficult to distinguish the problem drinker from an alcoholic or the drug abuser from a drug addict.
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
-
JillJill (SO)
- Miss Crystal Goddess
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:15 am
Thank you, Absaroka, for your insight and encouragement. There is so much 'wrong' in my marriage that it just seems an overwhelming task to fix. And, I am working on it from the 'end of my rope' as the damage from my husband's affair, and the ways he mismanaged the aftermath, have never been addressed in ways which foster healing. So, I don't know...
Yup, we are still in counseling.
Yup, we are still in counseling.