How the borderland failed me

How are you dealing with or handling this aspect of your life?

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Anita
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How the borderland failed me

Post by Anita »

I took some comments from another thread, because it reminded me of a ‘hobby horse’ that I’ve ridden here before. It’s about my identity as a woman. Being on the border of male and female for 40-some years was not very satisfying. I finally got fed up. I put this in "Coping for CDs," because it's more about my frustration with being a guy than it is about going out as a woman.

Ralitsa wrote:
I've noticed myself that I think and say things that are more typical of a woman now than I normally did before. I used to specifically direct my thoughts and attitudes in a specific "manly" way, in effect telling myself that "guys don't think and care about that stupid girl stuff." Maybe it was overcompensation, not allowing myself to care about it out of fear that everyone would find out that I'm a sissy.
That rang a bell with me. I was always ”directing my thoughts and attitudes,” especially as a teenager. A friend of mine (who disapproves of what I do) once said, “Every man has to figure out what he’s going to do with any feminine tendencies he might have.”

I figured it out early on, and as much as those 'girl' thoughts might have appealed to me, I could only see them leading to being either a sissy or an effeminate man. There were no other choices, as far as I could see. I must have known something about drag and crossdressing, but all I could see was that CDing was a joke and a disgrace if discovered, and a secret otherwise. I never imagined a crossdresser going out in public, and I certainly didn’t hear about it or read about it. Drag was something gay men did.

As I got older, I was more comfortable with being what people would call “a sensitive man.” From my late 20s to my mid-40s, I would have fit that description. It gave me more room to think feminine, and it made it easier to be around women. I could ‘talk their talk’ to some extent. But only to a certain point. I accepted that there were limits to what men could say or do. Again, I still didn’t want to be a sissy, for want of a better word.

Ralitsa wrote:
But women are not usually comfortable talking to men about most things because men generally don't care about it and don't put much effort into the conversation.
This much I was able to do, as a guy. I tried not to let it get out of hand, so that I was only talking to women. My trans girlfriend did that almost all of her life—all her friends were girls or women. She just didn’t understand men. I did understand men, and I liked being around them. But the limits of who I could be as a man started to get to me.

The pressure begin to build up when I was around 43, while I was still in a relationship. I found myself adopting more of the mannerisms of my girlfriend, which was something I’d never done with any other woman that I knew of. Lynda was glamorous to look at, but she was also “one of the guys,” in the way she talked and acted, so taking on her mannerisms was a borderland between guy and gal. It didn’t stick out too much, but I was aware I was doing it. It was OK with me; I could see that whatever it was, I wasn’t going to fight it.
Consequently I spend a lot more time talking with women than I ever did before.
That is the one remarkable thing that I continue to discover on this journey. Women talk to me differently when I’m presenting another woman to them, and it’s not something that can easily be described. It’s like I’m eavesdropping in on another conversation, only—it’s me having it! It takes my breath away, and I don’t always know how to handle it when the other woman appears to forget who she’s talking to. One woman friend was talking about menopause, and said something about how she and I had to deal with some aspect of it—then she caught herself, and probably felt foolish for a moment.

What strikes me about all of this is that for me personally, there were very few rewards on the border of male-female behavior. If I kept to my side of the fence as a sensitive man, I didn’t really get much out of it, looking back. The women opened up to me a little more, true. The men didn’t care one way or the other.

After I went to the extreme of presenting a woman in the world, both men and women treated me differently. Men paid more attention to ‘sensitive’ behavior from a woman; things they would ignore from another guy. And women trusted another woman more than they would a guy, no matter how nice a guy he might be. There is no way to discover these things other than crossing the border, and it’s so surprising to find out what it’s like to be ‘someone else’—a girl version of who I thought I was all those years.

April Rose wrote:
Our problem is not our cross dressing. Our problem is our isolation.
Very well put, April. This whole dilemma reminds me of walking on hot coals. There’s no way to do just ‘a little’ bit of firewalking—you either do it or you don’t. Going out as a woman is exactly like that. If there are any rewards to be had,(and I think there are some) you have to present a different appearance, and there’s no going back.
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Carol Ann
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Re: How the borderland failed me

Post by Carol Ann »

Anita,
I find your post very interesting and a few things come to my mine :-k about my true feelings and what I am all about. I will think on it as I want to be able to put it in the proper words.
Hugs my dear friend (--)
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Re: How the borderland failed me

Post by Ralitsa »

I am so glad that you were interested in what I said Anita.
It really is ironic, is it not, that "drag is what gay men did", when nothing is further from the truth? :?
it really is the isolation that is the key point, thank you April Rose for that. we don't fit in with the men, nor do we fit in with the women. We can see to foolishness of women at the same time as laughing at the shallow bravado of men. Isolation is something that has been part of me forever, so I guess that I am used to it now. That really has nothing to do with my CDing, except that it makes CDing for me so much easier because nobody holds anything over me now.
oddly, when I'm dressed like a woman I don't particularily care, one way or the other, whether people identify me as male or female. whether somebody refers to me as "she", or "he" or "that carzy one over there" is pretty irrelevant to me. really I just feel like I am myself, and not something that fits into a category. (see the thread on rule-breakers)
For me, the reward is feeling good about myself. I really do feel nice when I am wearing something pretty and I know that I look good. I don't know how it is different from a cocaine addiction, I've not done cocaine. But I like it, it makes me feel good, and that is really the whole point.
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Absaroka
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Re: How the borderland failed me

Post by Absaroka »

Anita this is a great topic. It's one you've touched on a number of times before, but because this is such a complex subject it is not repetitive. I think it gets to the heart of a lot of things that are difficult to figure out how to discuss simply because we don't even know what the issues are.

I identified, of course, with the confusion about "how does a man act?" I think that this happens to all teenagers, it's part of the confusion of figuring out who and what we are. In my case it had to do as well with the other teens I hung out with, both boys and girls, being beyond confused and well into disturbed. In particular I remember having the idea that if I didn't hit your girlfriend now and then that she would lose respect for me. I still remember vividly talking to an older man about this and telling him that I was not sure this was a really good idea and him telling me emphatically that I was correct, that this was in fact a really bad idea.

O fast forward into my late twenties. By that time I was almost out of my teenage years. At that time I was tremendously blessed to have a number of men in my life of varying ages that I could really talk with and be whoever it was I thought I might be. As a result I came to terms with the whole "sensitive man" part of me, which in many ways can more simply be described as a nice guy who thinks a bit too much and gets his feelings hurt a bit too easily. About that time I met my future wife, and had to transition (no not THAT transition) into somewhat more conventional circles. The funny thing is that to outside eyes she moved in very unconventional circles. In particular she had lots of gay male friends in the theater. It's always been difficult for me to be around folks who like crude language, all male sex parties, lots of booze, and who are so concerned with keeping up appearances.

Along the way there were lots of women friends. Being heterosexual, there was always a sexual component to the friendship, even if actual sex did not take place. I find that I like the attentiveness that comes when someone sees you as a potential sexual partner, albeit only in theory. After marriage I used to describe it as dating without sex, and viewed it as vastly more comfortable now that the wedding ring took sex off the table. It's probably the reason that I like both gay men (I know that they know that I'm straight) and lesbians (I know that they know that I know that they're lesbians) But with all that out of the way, there is a lot of "girl talk" that I'm bored to tears by. Tell me all about your feelings and that sort of stuff, but I'm really not interested in your hair, nails, or messy house.

One other thing you said caught my eye. You talked about picking up mannerisms of your girlfriend. That's something I do with people I like generally. I suppose you could call it being a chameleon, but there's nothing wrong with that if it's what you really are.

Thanks for another great thread.

Zari
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Paula G
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Re: How the borderland failed me

Post by Paula G »

Very interesting, until recently I have not been much in the borderlands, I have tended to occupy one side or the other. My male side is pretty male, my occupations and interests tend to the masculine, certainly my taste in sports does. On the other hand my female side although only recently allowed out in public is definitely female.

I is only since I have started to come out to some close friends that I find it at all possible to blur the edges, and I'm not sure that that is a good thing. I have said before that I think that being Paula allows Paul to be a better man, not stronger or more manly, but better, more considerate, more empathic, if it were not for Paula I think I might feel the need to emphasise my masculinity in ways that would diminish my manliness. err or am I rambling again? :huh:
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Re: How the borderland failed me

Post by Ralitsa »

I think I have always occupied the borderlands, of every social group. I have never really fit in anywhere, and so the isolation that many suffer from CDing is to me a natural state. Oddly, although it is not a desirable place to be, I find that to do what would be necessary for fitting in, is even less appealing to me.
I don't really identify myself as in a particular category, whether male, american, white, etc. Although I am obviously all of those, I don't think of that as my identity, but it necessarily shaped my identity.
So it was kind of hard at first to get the courage to wear womens clothes in public, but not nearly so hard as for someone who's identity depended on being accepted into a group that will not accept that deviation from the norm. After I got over the initial fear of being harrassed or murdered, which thankfully has not come close to happening, dressing in this way has become my way of stating "I am not one of you".
I don't know why it is necessary for me to make that known. Maybe it is because I despise rules and boundaries and limitations, and I resent any imposition on my freedom. Or maybe it is because I fear having too close emotional ties to people and it is a way to keep them back. Or maybe I'm just crazy. Maybe I just like to think that I am different and special, and this is simply egotism.
See, I don't really fit in here either, although it's closer than anywhere else. Of course the diversity and spectrum of positions is what makes this site valuable and interesting. But I like to come here because I feel like we are helping each other with the common interest we have. If I go out in public doing "woman things" without trying to make everyone believe that I am a woman, then I think that might tend to blunt the stigma associated with men not acting manly. And perhaps that will make it easier for the next one. And at the same time, you give me a place to share my thoughts and feelings and give some intelligent feed back. That last part is vital to me. If I talked to any "normal" person about these things, I would get either total disinterest, or a lot of meaningless, feel-good plattitudes. But I would not get any interested and well considered thoughts or ideas.
Like Zari, I guess we all go through the struggle of figuring out "how does a man act" and "who am I". I am a little surprised that there are people who believe that a guy should slap his girl around once in a while so that she will respect him. I know there are plenty of guys who want to slap women around, but I didn't realize they thought they were supposed to :? I was dumb enough to think they they knew they were jerks but didn't care, I guess many people are not that honest with themselves. I think "how does a man act" is the wrong question; kids should be asking themselves "how should a person act?" Mark Twain is particularily good at illuminating the discrepancy between what is and what should be. He has been major inspiration for me to seriously rethink the supposed to's that we are fed from infancy.
Since I refuse to comply with all the supposed to's, I will be forever relegated to the Borderland. It suits me though. I just don't like being in one place too long, whether it's geographical, gender-ial, or behavioural. I do like Twain's philosophy that "everything should be taken in moderation, including moderation itself." So I will continue to flit between the places, let me know if you'd like me to bring something back from over there
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Re: How the borderland failed me

Post by Anthony Simon »

There's stuff I remember from my childhood apart from CDing that still seems to have some meaning now. Like I always remember the theme from the John Ford/John Wayne movie "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon". It touched something quite deep and exciting for me. Now I'm not entirely sure why - after all why does one respond to this bit of music and not another? - but I do know that, as an adult, there's a character in that I probably identify with as much as any. So...

This character is a sergeant in the US cavalry called Tyree (played by Ben Johnson). He's never going to rise above sergeant because he had the bad luck to be on the wrong side in the Civil War - in which he was a captain on the Confederate side. He's therefore an able guy who's never going to get credit for his abilities in terms of status, though his peers do recognise him. So I identify with that - and, I'm guessing, I always have done.

The key scene for me is when he gets stuck with riding across country alone and has to outrun some Indians. He does this by jumping his horse across a crevice (he's well-mounted and Johnson was a pro-horseman before he went into movies) which the Indians can't do. So he gets away. It's that jumping across the gap that does it for me. Like that's what I think I'm about, jumping across gaps - being a bridge - or, to put it another way, the borderland is absolutely my space.
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Anita
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Re: How the borderland failed me

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Ralitsa wrote:
It really is ironic, is it not, that "drag is what gay men did", when nothing is further from the truth?
At least before the Internet, it was really impossible to find that out, unless you knew an ‘out’ CDer personally, and how many of us did? Not I, said the tall girl sitting at her computer. I remember pre-Internet, and me feeling that I was going to be out there doing this ‘thing’ that no one else did—go out dressed as a woman. Still, even now, I don’t see my sisters out there; I only know about them through a forum like this one, and a meeting that I go to.
That really has nothing to do with my CDing, except that it makes CDing for me so much easier because nobody holds anything over me now.
It is easier that way. At the same time, I suspect my business has been hurt by this. It’s not like I go around announcing it, but it is a matter of record if someone wants to look hard enough. Internet searches bring my musical life up next to my business life, and although the girl doesn’t show up on the same page, the musician does. There is some prejudice against musicians as businessmen, (my business partner believes this), and that could have hurt me as much as any CDing.

Absaroka wrote:
At that time I was tremendously blessed to have a number of men in my life of varying ages that I could really talk with and be whoever it was I thought I might be.
That is a tremendous blessing. I’ve had my oldest brother to talk to, and that has been valuable. Other than than, not too many men.
Along the way there were lots of women friends. Being heterosexual, there was always a sexual component to the friendship, even if actual sex did not take place.
That used to be somewhat of a problem for me. A pleasant sort of problem, but still troublesome. At one point when I was living with a girlfriend, "A," I noticed that my talks with friend-who-was-a-girl, "B," were getting too intimate, and I had to stop talking to her so much. Unfortunate, but necessary. Four years later, she became girlfriend B, but by that time I had been single again for two years, and did not feel guilty about it.

By becoming my gal self, I took a lot of the tension out of that sexual component with women. They see another girl in front of them, not a guy. This would have horrible to my younger self, who took pride in being attractive. My older self just shrugs about it; it's not that important to me anymore.

Paula wrote:
I is only since I have started to come out to some close friends that I find it at all possible to blur the edges, and I'm not sure that that is a good thing. I have said before that I think that being Paula allows Paul to be a better man, not stronger or more manly, but better, more considerate, more empathic, if it were not for Paula I think I might feel the need to emphasise my masculinity in ways that would diminish my manliness. err or am rambling again?
So you’d try too hard to be masculine? I’m not sure I do understand. I get the part about Paula balancing out Paul. So if she weren’t balancing him out…he might be going to extremes of masculinity. But how would that diminish his manliness?

Ralitsa wrote:
That last part is vital to me. If I talked to any "normal" person about these things, I would get either total disinterest, or a lot of meaningless, feel-good plattitudes. But I would not get any interested and well considered thoughts or ideas.
It would drive me crazy not to have people to talk to about this, whether on here, or at meetings. This is not something that most people can support without living it. I mean, it just takes too much of a stretch to put themselves in our place--it's an intellectual and emotional strain to do it. There's probably also that fear that if you do allow yourself to emphasize with a CD, it would be contagious somehow. This is not an idle fear. I think that Anthony referred to it in another thread; that talking to another CD in person stirs up too much emotion around the topic.

Anthony Simon wrote:
Like that's what I think I'm about, jumping across gaps - being a bridge - or, to put it another way, the borderland is absolutely my space.
It's been mine, too, for most of my life. I've never really fit in anywhere, if I was really being myself. So finally I went to the extreme of doing what I do here, and thereby found friends that were closer to me than any I'd had before. For maybe the first time, I had a homeland--or the closest to it that I've ever known. This is not a small thing, at all.

That brings it full circle, I suddenly see. To live on the borderland, for me, was to always be a stranger. Yet I never saw any "country" where I felt at home, not even Rock music, which was very dear to me. I think my inability to find close musical companions was part of what drove me to suddenly cross gender lines, and search for a new home. Music was supposed to have been my homeland, and yet I did not find any comfort there.

So I kept searching, and I found a community I never really knew was there. But some part of me had always belonged to it--I started CDing at 12!--so it wasn't a total shock. I just never knew that my secret could ever be a bridge to something better, for me personally. I also know that some of us do not find acceptance with SOs or family, and that this hurts more than it helps. This forum at least provides some measure of acceptance for those who won't find it elsewhere.
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Re: How the borderland failed me

Post by Ralitsa »

I find it interesting, Anita, how many of us feel that we really do not fit in. I guess that I should not be surprised, and maybe I'm not, but anyway it is nice to know that I'm not the only one skulking around the edges of life.
I am a bit surprised about what you said regarding your music. I had always pretty much assumed that the best musicians were more or less outcasts, that is was the lonliness and desolation which drove them to their creative achievements (and also drug addiction and early death). So I didn't expect that you would look for acceptance in your music, I thought music would be your media for voicing your exclusion. I only wish that I had some musical talent, then I would explain what pain and suffering is all about.
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Anita
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Re: How the borderland failed me

Post by Anita »

So I didn't expect that you would look for acceptance in your music, I thought music would be your media for voicing your exclusion.
Oh, I was exclusive, alright. I had a lot of arrogance and snobbery about how my brand of music was the only true gospel around. But unlike a Bob Dylan, say, I always wanted a band around me that was on that same page. No matter how much of a rebel you may be, you can usually find a few kindred souls. It just never happened that way for me.

Interesting that after I started putting myself out there as a woman, I found much more musical success than I'd ever had as a guy. But I had to surrender that image of the True Rock musician. In the brand of hard rock I practiced in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, anything to do with glam or androgyny was a sham and a sell-out. It was very hard to give up all that, and just play the music from the heart. Rock was a religion of sorts for me, and I took it very seriously. Becoming a trans woman was like a priest deciding to get married; he can do that if he wants, but he's no longer got any authority in the church.

However, I really enjoyed my playing as a woman in a way that I didn't as a guy. I felt I had so much more freedom to express emotion as a girl--a wider range of what was acceptable.
I only wish that I had some musical talent, then I would explain what pain and suffering is all about.
You can still write songs, even if you can't sing them or play them. It helps to know a few chords on a piano or a guitar, but you don't have to have either one to write a song. You might be surprised at what you can come up with.
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Ginny Jones
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Re: How the borderland failed me

Post by Ginny Jones »

Great Thread Anita!

This thread is why I joined this forum! To me the idea of a "borderland" implies that gender is a dichotomy. I have never experienced it in that way. My alienation from others has been on the back of them experiencing it as a dichotomy. Internally I experience myself as having a wide range of gender traits - and this is reflected in my outward behaviour. Transitioning to being a woman leaves me in exactly the same place I am today (well kinda 8-[ ). In most situations as a male - others would describe me as being fairly alpha! I like my masculinity! At the same time I am quite able to express emotions, have good empathy, can track "feeling" behaviours in others and identify them accurately and am more interested in relationships than things. These are not minor traits - in me they are pronounced! In fact - I make a living out of these traits working as a nurse / therapist (though to be fair there is more to it than that). My choice of career was certainly aimed at finding employment that fit my internal world (whilst giving me a good excuse to hang around nurses! :shock: ).

This all leaves me in a confused state because i tend not to relate gender to genetic sex or sexual preference. In this regard I have no real affiliation with being genetically male and no real need to be female either. Given the choice I would rather have been born female. I only say this because I find them easier on the eye! That whole "last chicken in the shop" look doesn't really appeal to me. My sexual preference is that I prefer women.

In short therefore I would say that my experience of gender is wider than the "brief" given to either sex.

By the way Anita - The guitar thing sounds fascinating! I have always erred on the heavy side when playing guitar (Led Zeppelin were my heroes!). That said - the band that got me into playing the guitar was a band called Heart! They were very feminine and could really play - listen to "Baracuda" for example. Of course - then they went all eighties and the big hair didn't really do it for me any more. I can remember singing along to their early albums as a kid (pre-puberty) and being a treble I used to love being able to get the sound just right! Of course then you wake up one morning and you're John Lee Hooker! Hey ho!

I'm going to end here and think on this some more as it seems to be throwing up a lot for me.

Thanks for your thread

Hugs Ginny x
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Anita
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Re: How the borderland failed me

Post by Anita »

Thanks for the acknowledgement , Ginny.
To me the idea of a "borderland" implies that gender is a dichotomy. I have never experienced it in that way.
You bring up a stark point for me. While many, many people may feel as you do, the whole gender ‘system’ is set up to only be experienced one way.
Cultures all over the world are very consistent in this. I see it like this: some behaviors are hard-wired in us because of gender differences, but the world would like to pretend that nearly all behaviors are dictated by gender. That way of thinking is a source of a lot of pain.
Transitioning to being a woman leaves me in exactly the same place I am today (well kinda 8-[ ). In most situations as a male - others would describe me as being fairly alpha! I like my masculinity! At the same time I am quite able to express emotions, have good empathy, can track "feeling" behaviours in others and identify them accurately and am more interested in relationships than things. These are not minor traits - in me they are pronounced! In fact - I make a living out of these traits working as a nurse / therapist (though to be fair there is more to it than that). My choice of career was certainly aimed at finding employment that fit my internal world (whilst giving me a good excuse to hang around nurses! :shock: ).
I am so glad to hear that you made a career choice that would allow you to be more of yourself. Someone once described therapy training as a discipline where men learn to think and talk like women—don’t know where that came from, but it always seemed accurate to me. The language of therapy is also the language of women.
This all leaves me in a confused state because i tend not to relate gender to genetic sex or sexual preference. In this regard I have no real affiliation with being genetically male and no real need to be female either.
That can be a tough place to be in, Ginny. So many situations in daily life call for one to ‘instinctively’ react in a very specific way, and you’ve got to have your gender act perfected. You’ve got to know your role so well that it’s spontaneous to do ‘boy’ things.

I’ll say one thing. A high percentage of transgender-feeling men start out their lives being attracted to women. So at least we don’t have to pretend when it comes to that part of boyhood. I can only guess how painful it’s got to be for the boy who not only has “feminine” traits that he’s got to hide, but he also has same-sex feelings that he’s got to hide, too. Of course, not all gay men have a problem with acting masculine, so I’m generalizing here.
In short therefore I would say that my experience of gender is wider than the "brief" given to either sex.
I think that that may be the experience of many more people than any of us know. For us it’s a very recognizable pain. I think there’s lots of other people who know there’s a dull ache somewhere inside, but they don’t know what it is, and they can ignore it. There’s so many other problems in the world to deal with that gender role pain gets shoved to one side. I myself did that for many years.
I have always erred on the heavy side when playing guitar (Led Zeppelin were my heroes!).
My girlself was right at home playing Led Zeppelin songs in the last band. That was the most comfortable combination of music and acting out emotion onstage.
That said - the band that got me into playing the guitar was a band called Heart! They were very feminine and could really play - listen to "Baracuda" for example.
I really love Ann Wilson’s vocals. But I’d have to say that it was Roger Fisher’s guitar that set the tone for the version of Heart that won me over. Once he was gone, I lost interest, too.

There are very few women who have ever played rock that I could identify with. In a big way, I became my own version of the woman that I had always wanted to hear and see.
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Re: How the borderland failed me

Post by Ralitsa »

well I really agree with what Ginny said about the gender dichotomy. obviously there are 2 distinct genders, but I have never liked the distinction. I still stuggle with the whole idea of "men are like this, and women are like that."
I don't like people who identify themselves first according to their gender, I prefer to consider gender much further down on the list of attributes. There is some contradiction in my attitude though, because I am physically attracted to women, and from that perspective one must necessarily consider gender first. So does this mean that it all comes down to ones priorities regarding companion, collegue, friend, sexual partner, or casual acquaintance? maybe so.
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