I have a thought ....

[Jessie]

I was thinking today, since I have the time now after working a long week, that. What is Cross Dressing? I was thinking and thinking and could not really come up with an answer that satisfied me. At first I thought it might be a fetish but I am not sure as some people are Trans Gender feeling like they are born in the wrong body so they express this by wearing the sex clothes that truely represents themselves. Now I am still wondering and thinking about this want to know what others are able to answer the question. Is there even an answer to the question with out having to ask for questions.

Jesse :arrow: Jessie
or is it
Jessie :arrow: Jesse

[Alexandra]

How about this: generally "crossdressers" are strictly into the female clothing part, and wearing them (whether in secret or out in public) whereas transgendered individuals are mentally miles beyond the "wearing female clothing" thing that CDs find of primary interest.

It may be of interest to some that post-op TG girls often no longer spend as much time on their personal appearance (clothes, make-up et al) as they used to. This would never happen to a pure crossdresser. Would it?

While I'm not a behavioral scientist (nor do I play one on TV -- pun intended ) I'm quite sure that anyone trying to chisel a definition of CDs or TGs in stone will sooner or later find themselves having to hide a large rock.

Anybody want to throw a wet blanket on my theory?

[CJ]

Hi Jessie! :!: (I prefer Jessie )

Like Alexandra said, there's no easy way to wrap our heads around this question (and I sometimes think behavioural scientists are the least equipped to do so!--but I'm biased that way).

I know words never properly capture experience, but, if we're to go by the simple definition of the word, crossdressing just means wearing the opposite sex's clothes, nothing more, nothing less. A panty fetishist and a pre-op TS both crossdress (although, again, like Alexandra, I think only our transsexual can really be considered a transgendered person).

The reason I, like countless people before me, find it hard to deal with labels is that they don't accurately reflect the rich diversity of human experience. For example, many would say I'm a crossdresser. Why would they say that? First of all, it's not something I do full-time. Am I still being a crossdresser when I wear "jeans and a beer-stained T-shirt"? ( to Shannon) Second, a crossdresser (or a plumber, or a shizophrenic, or even a birdwatcher) is a term used to describe a part of who we are or what we do, not the whole of it, by any means.

In other posts, I've stressed the human aspect of who we are, because I think it's the highest level of identification and connection we can aspire to as human beings. I will never have any objection to someone calling me a human being. It's something I am (and do) full-time, so to speak. But, crossdressing? Please, let me be larger than that. I am larger than that! We all are. I'd never stoop to calling someone who wears gender-appropriate clothing a "dresser." Why not? Because I'm almost sure that, when they bathe or take a shower (amongst other things), they're not, in fact, dressed.

Anyway, Jessie, that's a good topic, one that's endlessly debated. I'm curious about any thoughts or answers of your own you might want to share with us.

Love,
CJ

[Jessie]

The thought I had was for what reasoning do crossdressers have for well crossdressing instead of just say wearing clothes and nothing more. The subject sometimes drives me crazy, especially when I have to much time on my hand, I go into these really deep thoughts and try to analyze them. The one way I do this is by asking the question and trying to see what other peoples views are too maybe help me understand myself. (Some times I write with out really thinking and this is what comes out) Pure thought is fascinating to me and words fascinate me. I still do not understand why crossdressing would it be or not be a fetish. (Maybe I will look up the word fetish and that will help). But given to our human nature of being human in the truest sense, I always shall believe that you should be loyal to yourself.

By the way the arrow part was to point out that Jesse is Jessie as Jessie is also Jesse.

Just a thought

Jessie

[CJ]

Hi Jessie,

Yes, I see what you're saying. In another post, I mentioned that one big reason I like places like this is that we're able to think out loud about certain matters and see what comes up. It's great.

Concerning the "arrows," let me rephrase my previous greeting: Hi Jessie :arrow: Jesse :arrow: Jessie, (I prefer the person behind Jessie! )

I'll still call you Jessie, if that's okay.

Love,
CJ

[Jessie]

No problem!!! CJ. It was just about a point I was making. I like it also. But I just was thinking really deep about how we have different sides to one another and why those sides seem to split (though not as series as say Dr. Jekly and Mr. Hyde)

I just thought if you start thinking REALLY DEEP about things, anything really, it can drive you crazy so to speak.

Jessie

[RikkiOfLA]

The best information I have leads me to the conclusion that crossdressing is a combination of three motivations. That is to say, all crossdressers have at least one of these motivations (reasons why they dress) and some have more than one. But not all crossdressers have all three. The motivations are...

1. Sexual stimulation from wearing women's clothes.

2. A perception that women have the privilege of wearing more variety (styles, colors, materials, etc.) including some more attractive, sexier, or more beautiful clothing. There is envy of this privilege.

3. Some amount of gender dysphoria (discomfort with some of the aspects of being male).

This analysis lets us say some very interesting things...

It should be noted to that each of these motivations can be had to varying degrees. Someone who has motivation 3 strongly would be a transsexual and would interested in transitioning. But what happens to those who have motivation 3 weakly? Transition would have an appeal, but that appeal would probably be strongly offset by other factors such as family, position at work, favorite "male" pastimes, etc. So this person might crossdress occasionally, fantasizing about transtioning.

These motivations are also dynamic. That is to say, they can grow or shrink in response to stress, changes in testosterone levels, aging, reinforcement, and other factors. An increase in testosterone level (such as puberty) probably causes an increase in motivation 1 for example.

This theory also explains the apparent continuum between crossdressers and transsexuals. A person who is strongly motivated by 1, 2, and 3 would probably be autogynephilic.

At this point, this is just a theory, and lots more needs to be said and done. But I think it is a very promising explanation.

Love and respect,
Rikki

This theory that these 3 motivations can be had in varying degrees

[Alexandra]

"behavioural scientists"

I thought I'd add one little thing about something I brought up and CJ commented on . . .

one of the reasons "experts" sometime appear to be missing the mark is that we as a society are GUILTY of easily accepting an "argument from authority" as fact. Just because an "expert says so" doesn't mean they are correct. By not questioning comments or theories from "authorities" we've allowed lunatic theories thrive in our society. Authorities need to provide proof like anybody else.

We need to do inquiring of our own into these "experts" . . . Is the "expert" quoting peer-reviewed research that has been published in a professional journal? Has the research being quoted ever been replicated in another study? These are just two fairly reliable indicators to whether or not the information may be indeed factual.

We need to ask basic questions like these and inquiring about the "experts'" educational backgrounds (what degrees they have, where the degrees were obtained from -- then calling to verify!!!). Honest researchers will have no problem with supplying all the information.

[Alexandra]

Rikki, Interesting about #2. I've never thought about such an envy (which indicates my being motivation "weak" on #2). I sort of see it as a fringe benefit.

[Sara]

All these posts are so thought provoking.

It was struck by Rikki using the word "continuum." That's exactly the word the wonderful writer Jan Morris used in her book "Conundrum" on her transition. (The book is pretty dated, but still a compelling story by a very skilled writer.)
I think Rikki nailed it, at least from my experience. There is a blend of motivations that vary not only day to day but within the normal train of thought. Part of the issue is a conflict imposed by the expectations of society--expectations that become more compelling as we build careers, families, relationships that we're reluctant to put at risk. In a non-judgemental world, our ability to express these "second selves," would be far less repressed.
As CJ expressed so well, the label cross dresser or transgendered misses so much of whom each of us is individually. We all have jobs, friends, family, and who we are is not simply a measure of our preferred manner of dress. At the same time, the parts of our nature that compel us to express our feminity can't help but inform the rest the way we live. Which brings me back to the continuum. We're all looking for our rightful spot on the sexual continuum--and I suspect that those of us who explore this day in and day out, however difficult that may be, may have in some ways some insights into what it is to be human than those who don't question who they are. Our natures demand that we be somewhat introspective--as the posts here suggest.
In another part of the forum, somone pointed to the gender test, and most of the replies I've seen showed that most of us tested largely female. Whether the test is valid or not is less relevant than that most of us who replied felt pleased with the result--that our place on the continuum at least leaned toward women. We have already located ourselves on the continuum.
There's a great sci-fi novel by Ursula LeGuin (apologies if the name is mixed up--I'm stretching my memory here, and I can't recall the name of the book) in which people on the planet in the novel could change their sex as circumstances demanded. Gender was a choice, one that helped stabilize society. It's an appealing concept.
Sometimes I like to think that those of us somewhere other than the opposite ends of the continuum would be the shamans in a more world more in tune with spirituality. This thing that we label crossdressing or transgendered can be a terrible burden, but as I get older, I also find it a gift, and feel a little bit sorry for those who cannot share it. Wishful thinking? Just plain nuts? Maybe. But it's who I am, and I'm beginning more and more to like who I am--and the wonderful ladies on this site are helping make that happen.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Gee, we're getting in deep, here, girls. I love it!

Sara, thanks for a very thoughtful post. There's much to chew on in what you said. I find your thinking also closely parallels mine on this issue. I'm also looking for my place on the gender continuum; I suspect that, depending on what's going on in my life or how I feel at any given moment, I may be shifting around in that continuum. Probably, all human beings sort of slide around there, a little bit this way or a little bit that way without being too much aware of it.

And that's something I like also about Rikki's scheme; it's dynamic, it breathes along with who we feel ourselves to be at different times in our lives. (BTW, Rikki, I think that, generally speaking, and on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd rate myself a 5 on motivation 1, a 4 on motivation 2, and a 3 on motivation 3--well, as I write, anyway.) It's a blast to try to come up with new ways to figure out what and who we are as well as why we do the things we do.

Alexandra, I agree with what you say. Your thinking on research methodologies is pretty damned sound. Indeed, we shouldn't let ourselves be hoodwinked into considering ourselves this way or that by those that don't have the knowledge or the training to explain it even to themselves. They may have a hidden agenda. I'm fine with agendas; it's hidden agendas that make my pearly pink toenails curl up! However, the reason I remain skeptical about any such social or psychological "authorities" is simply because I grew up under a father who was a child psychologist, one that refused to deal with his son's early transvestism. No, that didn't make me hate him (well, I did hold a massive grudge for the longest time); rather, it made me realize how so very human these authorities are. They have their own perceptions, biases, opinions, preconceptions, and "reality filters." They aren't as objective as their credentials would lead us to think. No, the "argument from authority" doesn't sit well with me either. "Be ye lamps unto yourselves," I say.

Thanks, girls, for the brain food. By the way, Sara, good miss Ursula's book is called "The Left Hand of Darkness" and you're absolutely right: it's a very good read (and re-read, I may add).

Love,
CJ

[Alexandra]

CJ sez: "They may have a hidden agenda"

YES! Its called "$$$$$"

(Got a new PhD and no job? No problem -- just come up with a half-way plausible wild idea and apply for research grants and if you're particularly lucky, gullible institutions may buy into it and you're set for life -- although history won't be too kind to you when somebody replicates your research and its found to be bogus.)

I've been around enough researchers to know that the majority of scientists are indeed honest and ethical, but unfortunately, some of them let their bias (and prejudices) get in the way, so ASK QUESTIONS!

[CJ]

Hi Alexandra,

>(Got a new PhD and no job? No problem -- just come up with a half-way plausible wild idea and apply for research grants and if you're particularly lucky, gullible institutions may buy into it and you're set for life -- although history won't be too kind to you when somebody replicates your research and its found to be bogus.)<



I like it, I like it! Yes, indeedy. You're right, though: ask questions!

Love,
CJ

[Alexandra]

thanks.

[Jessie]

JUST A POST

I want to say that I am REALLY happy that people can think deeply about this subject, with out standing on the box, and just express some ideas. I am really happy with all the responses to my original post.

Jessie