not sure what I would do if...

A 'round table' for CDs, TGs and GG/SOs to talk with each other. We're all in this together, so let's make the most of it.

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Beauty
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Post by Beauty »

Hi CJ,

..rofl.. Yes, I know essentially we are agreeing more than disagreeing. :)

I'll shush. :bigsmile:

Ok, after I say one thing. :) Even if an SO leaves because their TG'd mate is carrying dark, psychological baggage about being transgendered it's not the SOs responsibility to help the TG'd person get any better. It would be kind, but if they leave them I think it's because they are saying, "I can't do this" and they should feel any guiltier than the TG'd person who hangs on to those negative feelings without seeking professional help.

Ok.. now I'll hush. :mrgreen:
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Post by Kathy »

Since I don't have an SO and have never been in a relationship that went far enough to talk about such things, probably because of my underlying feelings about CDing, I have had to come to grips with this almost entirely on my own. But, it took me over 40 years to get to where I am now. And, as such, I can only relate my own feelings here.

When I was a pre-teen, I was almost constantly raiding my sister's dresser and closet. I was also not very good a covering my tracks or putting things back before they were noticed. I was, therefore, "caught" numerous times by my parents. While they never took it out on me physically in any way, they made it abundently clear that boys had no business wearing girls clothes. But, I just couldn't help it. As time went on, I just got more and more secretive about what I was doing. Over time the emotional impact of defying my parents "orders" along with the growing concern about why I was so preoccupied with girl's clothes while all of my friends were playing football or baseball just made me feel like a total loser. And, in this rural area there was literally nobody I could turn to for help. All I had to go on was the constant scolding of my parents telling my I was doing something very wrong.

Since I graduated from high school more than 20 years before the opening of the internet to the general public, you can be sure I carried all of this "baggage" well into my adult years.

So I can well identify with those CDers who have had a problem comming out to their SOs. It was a very long time before I even heard or read the term transvestite. And, when I did, all the information I could find at the time was very negative. But, at least I was finding out that I wasn't alone.

Now, given all of that, was I going to talk about that to a potential girl friend? Not a snowball's chance in h**l!

Kathy(SO) is very lucky to have grown up in an age where there were such things as web sites. To have found a mate that had managed to come to terms with his CDing is, to me, almost astonishing. But it also gives me a great deal of, I can't think of the word I want but, to know that the younger generations of CDs have this resource available is wonderful.

As to the topic of SOs and how much support they can give their CDer, each must follow her own heart and do what she feels is right for herself. Sometimes it is necessary to have the courage of your convictions. In some cases it will be the courage to support your mate whetever comes. But in others it will be the courage to move on. The only right or wrong is whatever each individual feels deep down inside.

I hadn't intended to write a book here but, once I got started... :oops:

Love,
(the other) Kathy
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
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CJ
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Wow! Am I ever glad this thread caught people's attention once more; amazing replies! Just amazing!

Beauty,

Again, I agree with you 100%; it's not an SO's responsibility to make her partner happy (or vice-versa). I think it's understood that, ultimately, we each are responsible for our own happiness. But isn't it possible that the love, understanding, and compassion we have for someone can be a boost to that person in those times when that person has--at a given point in the relationship, and temporarily--little of these to give to himself or herself? Especially if we feel we have a surfeit of these ourselves? Kay wrote: Why did I do it? (...) I was on a mission to help him find self-acceptance, maybe it is the therapist in me since I really am one. Whatever, I did it because I love him.

Love is the strangest thing. Unlike, say, an apple pie, when you show love, and give love, to someone, you're often left with more to give, not less... if these two conditions are met: first, that you also get loved in return (perhaps for the very reason that you've freely given love in the first place, without any expectation other than that the person you've given it to find happiness because of that gift) and, second, that the flow of love in a relationship not go merely one way for too long (certainly not longer than it takes to notice whether or not the person so loved can eventually come to love himself or herself). I think Kay addressed both these conditions in her post, above; she has issues of her own (again, as we all do) and that her DH tries his best to show her how much she means to him regardless of those issues is a sure sign that Kay's love is requited--despite all other difficulties they may encounter in their relationship, crossdressing included. That her DH loves her can only help Kay to feel good about who she is and, yes, to help her love herself as well (dark side--or "Shadow," as Cathy Anderson would say--included).

It's when that love dries up (for whatever reasons--and there can be many) that other options should be considered as well, separation or divorce not the least of them. People do grow apart. It's just a fact of life. Relationships, friendships, marriages are organic... they live and breathe and expand and contract and, yes, sometimes they sicken and die. This might sound cliché but, if you've truly, genuinely, loved someone, you'll want nothing but that person's happiness... even should she or he find that happiness away from you. In the same way, we sometimes realize that our own happiness can only be found elsewhere, as Darlene has suggested (great post, by the way, Darlene!).

See what you've done now, Beauty? You've sent me on a roll. (Thanks! :wink: )

Kay,

What can I say? Although it seems both you and I have a similar "gift for gab," you always manage to reach the emotional heart of the matter so much more quickly than I do (being the sometimes over-analytical "head case" that I am, I guess that's par for the course, eh? :P ). What you wrote in your last post here has moved me and touched me very deeply. I feel as though I can sense, feel, and almost touch the love you have for your hubby, right there, just underneath the surface of your words. It's a very powerful experience and I'm deeply grateful to you for it and for having the courage to open yourself up the way you do. How unfortunate it is, in a way, that your DH isn't yet ready to give himself this same kind of healing opportunities. Your steadfastness and your love and compassion give this somewhat cynical "old soul" hope that all is not lost for us.

May all of you "follow your bliss," each in your own beautiful way, and learn to enjoy your (sorry, Virginia) "Magical Mystery Tour."

Love,
CJ
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Beauty
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Post by Beauty »

Hi CJ,

I agree again. :) This time I don't have one more thing to say again.

I loved what Kay did too. She decided to help because she wanted to and then she decided she'd kind of had enough and wanted him to help himself too.

I just want those who take comfort in their own misery and have an accepting SO to realize, just because she's accepting now doesn't mean she always will be if you don't try to improve yourself. I think Kay showed that it can grow to get on your nerves. I also think it's important for them to know what you said. Love is organic, if you don't nurture and take care of it, it can dry up and die.

BTW, I love in when you're on a roll because you write so well and are so clear it's a joy to read. :)
(--)
Beauty
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Post by Elizabeth »

Hi girls,

I also missed this post the first time around. I really don't see how I can not address this as it is so close to home. I too have found a totally accepting SO and I firmly beleive that a large part of that was self acceptance. Saying right away, this is what I am and this is what I shall remain. I can't change for you, so don't waste your time trying.

It took a while to get to self acceptance, although I beleive I always knew I would have to. But you see, no one wants you to. They want you to hide it and be ashamed of it. I dont' want to see you, don't tell the kids, don't tell our parents, don't let the neighbors see you.

One can not get to self acceptance through not accepting it. It is no big secret to those of you who know me that I am totally against crosssdressing limitations set by anyone, just for this reason. How can one hide in shame, while claiming self acceptance?

But society does put a high price on it. Breaking the social code makes people uneasy because they must justify why they follow the social rules imposed by society at large. Why should they have to, but not you?

But self acceptance means really accepting what we are. And when one does this, it allows others to do so also. I had to be the leader. I had to be the one who grabbed my children by the hand and went out dressed as me, and said "it will be ok, you will see". I had to be the one to say "what can anyone do?".

When we truly accept ourselves, we allow others to accept us. But when we are filled with self doubt, that makes others uneasy. Even my wife, who is totally accepting of me, had some difficulty being out with me at first. It bothered her if others stared at me, or gave me dirty looks. It surprised her and still does, that I rarely notice it.

But as time has gone by, she notices less and less. What can anyone say, really? "There goes a crossdresser" or "That was a man"? I already know that. It is not a real shock to find out I am really a genetic male. But once they say it, that is really all they can do.

Everyone told me it was unfair to come out and put this on my kids. I say it was unfair to hide from my kids who I really was, and let society shame me for being who I am. Many kids face alcoholism, abuse, neglect, hunger. Parents dying or being disabled. It is a part of life.

My children accept me because I left them the choice of accepting me or not accepting me. Not hiding who I am. All my childrens friends know. Thier parents know. And all the bad things that were supposed to happen just did not come to fruition.

Kathy said something that really struck home with me.
Kathy (SO) wrote:

WHen I read the posts from cd's who are still working on self acceptance, still trying to quit, continously appologizing to their wives and family for bring this upon their life....well I just am in shock.
Well? me too. I know that I did not ask to be this way, and I also did not ask to be brought into this world. I was not consulted about social rules being made that would deny me existance and I refuse to accept them. It is my firm beleif that all crossdressers no matter where on the spectrum of how one feels it, needs to come forward and embrace who they are. Stop apologizing to spouses, children, brothers, sisters, parents for being what we are.

My biggest fear used to be that I was going to live my entire life, and never live a day for myself. I have remedied that. I agree with Kathy, what a lot of SO others need is for us to pick up the ball and be the leader. Not just tell them how things can be good, but show them, convince them.

I know that my SO and my kids need my conviction about all this. They need my leadership. To say, "hey, we go where we want to go. What can they do? Take our birthdays away?" And with my leadership I have shown them that all the fears were for nothing. Not one bad thing has happened.

There was another post recently, and please forgive me for not being able to remember who wrote it, but they said that their SO was more accepting becase they stopped being "needy". I beleive our SO do in fact not want us to beg them to accept it. They need us to show them we can handle it. That nothing bad happens, unless you count someone pointing or laughing. I mean, nothing really happens. Because people who are the laugh and point type are always going to find something to laugh and point at. That is how they deal with thier own feelings of inferiority.

I will not be defined by insecure people who know nothing about the "content of my character". And if one can walk proudly, with conviction and purpose? One can always find someone to walk with.

And for the SO's out there that must have limitations, or rules, or bounderies, or whatever label one wishes to put on telling someone they are unacceptable. Don't be surprised that your CDer can not accept himself. One can not accept someone while telling them they must hide what they are, because it's shameful.

I know it sounds harsh, but really, couples who play this game, IMHO, have no chance at acceptance and mutual respect or a long loving relationship. It reminds me of guys I used to know who would be nice to certain girls who did not look like a super model, or were in some other way deemed to be a "ugly chick", so they could have sex with them, but in public would deny it, and never be seen in public with such a person.

And I know there are a lot of SO others out there who are going to say "hey!!! I was lied to. I never signed up for this". And all I can say is, the crossdresser never signed up for it either. It was imposed on him. He lied because society denies him existance as his true self. The truth is, the vast majority of relationships where the CDer did not disclose up front what he was, are not going to survive. The ones that do survive are not the ones where the CDer continues to live a life of shame. It is only a matter of time before he will be compelled to live his life as the person he was meant to be.

It can not be a coincedence that so many crossdressers come out later in life, a midlife crisis, as it were. The point where we all ask ouselves, "is this all there is?". We all reach a point where we decide to live at least some part of our life, the way we see fit.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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Rikki
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Right on the "mid-life" thing

Post by Rikki »

Liz,
You've got that right: openning up to oneself and others about CD'ing and midlife introspection seem to come hand in hand. (At least for me!!) rr
Be safe, Be frilled
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Post by Oregon (SO) »

Hi CJ...you canadian cutie you!

Thanks for bringing my old post back to life. I almost forgot I wrote it!

I also want to thank every person who contributed to this thread. i have read every post and thank every body for sharing their pesonal stories.

I want to respond to CJ though.

I thought about what you said. You are right about when I was single and 'on the prowl' it was easier to stop a relationship from growing while still in the first or second date stage once I knew where they stood with their self acceptance. Why? because I had not felt that 'feeling' that spark , that rush of *love*. And no matter how great the guy, it was too much work. Maybe if it had been love at first sight it would have seemed like less work, but none the less when it was not love at first lust/sight it seemed like a lot of work.

I guess I never felt that *spark* of love for anyone but my husband and I guess I got lucky because I can pretty much say if I had felt it with any of the others my post might have sounded alot like Kays.

I have had a husband & b-friends in my past who were ...gosh how to say it wihtout getting technical...'lost souls'. I was married to a Kleptomaniac, and like the 19 year newlywed I was I thought with enough love and compassion and support I can help heal him of his demons. That did not work. I also dated (after my divorce from Klepto) a man who had a rape conviction. Although he swore he was falsly acsused. I believed him for a while until one night he asked me to pretend to 'beg him stop' and attepmt to push him off me. In other words he had a rape fantasy. We broke up then.

I think by the time I was really ready to throw myself completely into dating a crossdresser I had felt that the part of me that just did all those things before was out of steam. I was tired of being someone's sole reason to feel better about who they were. I was tired of guys wanting/expecting me to validate and fix them. Not my words, but certainly words expressed by them.

I know that I do (or must have) alot of patience, even though I love to say I don't.

I liked your paragraph where you say that giving and giving even in hard times usually gets rewarded tenfold. My only rebuttall: IF the person recieving is truly apprecaiteive. I guess that is where I have either had really crappy luck (before) or just ran out of love before I got to reap any of those rewards... I certainly waited long enough in my first marriage (6 1/2 yrs) and I still got the shorter end of the stick. Not his fault, but he he had issues which were beyond my capabilites of helping. I know that now much better than I did back then.

I know my past relationships have affected how I handeled my feelings about self-love, self happiness, and all those self aceptance issues.

Every experience shaped me to know my mental and emotional capabilities. But after reading what kay wrote and what she did.... I am not so sure I could write this same post with the same feeliatgs I did when i started this thread back then.

really I will never know because the man I have fallen in love with has remained the same man in his feelings about who he is and what being a cd means to him. He knows where he came from with his dressing, he knows where he is and where he wants to go. All cut and dried.

If he had been confused and down trodden on himself...maybe I would have still fallen and stuck around and all that, because the feeling I got from being near him the first time we met face to face never leaves my heart. He filled me with something I had never felt before and luckily that flame (I know corney!!) still burns as hot today for him....

anyway, that was much longer than I meant it to be....

and again thanks to all who threw in their feelings...

hugs
kathy in canada
CJ wrote:Hi all,

It's been almost four months since the last post in this thread. I thought I'd try to revive it because it's an important subject. Our gender variance may be a gift to some but, to others, it's led them into hard times indeed. For most of us, I guess it's shaped both our positive traits as well as our darker, more unpleasant facets (such as shame- and guilt-based thinking, obssessiveness, self-loathing, etc.).

When I first read Kathy's original post, above, I took it at face value--as the thoughts of one woman who, though comfortable (to say the least) around crossdressers, has difficulty dealing (as do many other SO's) with many a crossdresser's self-acceptance issues.

Well, I've been thinking about this a little more (I'm sure "thinking" will be the death of me some day! :P ) and there seems to be a hidden assumption here; namely, that a CD's self-acceptance issues shouldn't include his SO's inability to accept that part of him that is still struggling to accept himself. In other words, and more plainly, there seems to be a kind of reasoning that wants to say that a CD's self-acceptance issues will (or should) vanish the moment someone else accepts him for who he is. I'm just not sure it's that simple.

I see a parallel here between an SO who's only just found out about her DH's crossdressing needing time (and lots of it) in order to process the entailments of that discovery and a CD who, in a similar fashion, cannot undo years of damage to his self-esteem in a mere moment, just because his SO accepts who he is. Both of these situations require time.

Kathy (and what I'll say here is not a criticism, just an observation), I'm inclined to think that a woman who runs away (yet again) from a man because he has trouble accepting himself as a gender-variant individual will only reinforce that man's view of himself as being somehow defective and unworthy of love and attention, thereby increasing the difficulty he has in accepting himself. On the other hand, a woman who sees enough goodness and kindness in that man, despite his baggage, and who decides to stick by him may very well set in motion the kind of emotional turnaround that man needs to do in order, precisely, to start accepting himself for who he is.

Now, I realize that (as you, yourself, mentioned, Kathy) no woman wants to become her DH's exclusive therapist or cheerleader, her DH'S sole source of emotional support--especially if that support will require all her attention or energy. It's draining. It's like being dragged under the surface of a choppy sea by a drowning person as you try to drag him to shore. But that's just it, though. There is a shore. The love, patience, and understanding a spouse can give to a spouse will often be a catalyst for self-acceptance and, assuming it's true that we cannot love someone else if we don't first learn to love ourselves, then the love, patience, and understanding given will one day be returned tenfold. I've seen this happen in my own life and I think it's the main reason I've both come to accept myself more fully as well as remained good friends with my former SO's.

We all have our bugs, quirks, and issues (and crossdressing is sometimes the least of these) but when a person finds a mate who doesn't "run, screaming into the night" because of these issues, chances are that person will come to see that he or she isn't less loveable because of those issues: and this, on its own, can be like a great shove in the direction of self-acceptance.

A long-time friend, a former SO (my current roommate), once asked me whatever possessed me to stick by her, all those years ago, when she was so obviously deeply, deeply troubled (to the point of being self-destructive). I told her that it was because, in spite of the dark, dark things she was going through (and, yes, that she put me through, as well), I always sensed that she was genuine, authentic, unrelentingly herself. That's all that mattered to me then. And it's all that matters to me now, twenty-five years down the road. Today, she attributes much of her capacity to love and accept herself to my willingness (and ability) to see (and to love) the person that she was--so hurt, so alone--behind the mask of her wildness and aggressive FTW attitude.

Having said all this, Kathy, I totally understand that each and every one of us is different in our desires and our needs as far as intimate relationships (or even friendships) go. Life is short, there's no denying that. We do what we must in order to waste as little time in finding what best makes us happy. But, sometimes, in our haste, we pass by a mud-covered diamond, thinking it's only a worthless pebble.

Anyway, Kathy, I just want to say, in closing, how so very valuable your presence in the online world is to people such as me--the single crossdresser who's "up front" (although not necessarily "in your face") about who he is. It gives me hope that I won't be forever "unmatched." Thank you for just being who you are.

Love,
CJ
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Kathy,

Thanks for explaining further how you feel about this self-acceptance stuff. It's a great help and goes a long way towards showing just how much our view of ourselves influences how other people view us as well.

There was a time in my life when I couldn't banish my gender issues far enough from me. I was a very angry young person. And people picked up on that. They avoided me. To this day, I consider it a minor miracle that I've never fallen into the world of drugs, alcohol, or other self-destructive habits. I feel so much better about who I am today. People pick up on that, too. And it goes around in a circle: when you like yourself, people like you; when people like you, you like yourself even more. And so on and so forth.

Again, thanks, Kathy, for putting this on the table. It matters. 8)

Regards to Amanda and Cleo.

Love,
CJ
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Post by Jeannie »

Hello ladies.
First I must say that when posting it's sometimes difficult to assertain the mood or demeanor of the person posting. At this moment I'm feeling happy and content. I'm just going to give you my opinions relating to me and we're all unique.
I think it is very difficult for our partners to understand us when we can't even understand ourselves. We can really be a bunch of big babies. Self absorbed and narcissistic. Always talking about acceptance. The only person that needs to accept us is ourselves. There are people of color,religion or race who have not been accepted for thousands of years and that will never change. It's nothing new.
My wife of 25 years moved out in october ,my kids are at college and after 55 years I'm loving life and myself. We our our own worst enemies. Thinking too much about everyone else and how they can understand and accept us. Go with the flow and be comfortable with yourself.
As for therapists. Just type it out and put a few spaces after the e and see what it spells! I'm happy who I am and will continue to be. I'm very happy today because I received my $10.00 off coupon for my birthday from Victorias Secret. Happiness comes in small doses in life. Enjoy it and we have to stop beating ourselves up. Who cares what others think of us. That's their problem. Big hugs.


Love
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Virginia
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Post by Virginia »

Amen, Jeannie, Amen, Girlfriend!!!!!
Virginia
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