Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi all,

I was just reading some of the recent posts in the SO's section (http://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/v ... php?t=1992). The wives and girlfriends, especially Mimi (Mimi, my heart goes out to you), are having a hard time figuring out why their partners seem not to be able to communicate their feelings.

Why is this? First, I want to say that I recognize myself in there. Even though my GFs were aware of my crossdressing before we'd actually become a couple (which suggests to me that they were, at the very least, okay with this side of me), I still had a lot of difficulty opening up about this very private aspect of my being. I'm wondering why, for God's sake? Here I have a woman who loves me, and isn't running away, screaming into the night at the thought of my dressing up, and still I'd keep my soul sealed off from her! What gives?

The "outside" theories (that is, from a point of view not my own), is that we crossdressers may be dealing with guilty feelings and issues of shame and low self-esteem. To be honest, I think there's some truth to that. Again, I recognize this within myself. But shame, guilt, and low self-esteem have much to do with what the world around you thinks of you. Like many here, I learned young that who I was (and am) is not okay with the world at large. That knowledge produced shame. And that shame was internalized; it coloured my entire personality and it led me to withdraw from "the world of men."

That's my own "inside" theory (as to why it's difficult for me to communicate my feelings to those I love), that my "shrinking in" within myself has buried my feelings so deeply that even I, myself, had (and, yes, sometimes still have) trouble accessing them. When, in my beginnings post (so many moons ago, it now seems), I referred to the breaking down of walls, I was talking about my need to "break out" and to "grow out" of myself, to share myself more fully with another, to be more fully in touch with myself (and, by extension, with others). In my case, it was a do or die situation; I felt I could no longer go on bottling everything up.

If you have a woman who's willing to take your hand, look into your eyes, and say, "this is who I am; please show me who you are," then, for Pete's sake, people, DO!

Anyway, just some of my thoughts on yet another lonely Monday night.

Love,
CJ

You are so right CJ.

If you have a woman who's willing to take your hand, look into your eyes, and say, "this is who I am; please show me who you are," then, for Pete's sake, people, DO!

I also have difficulty communicating my feelings to those I love, (I come from quite a cold family who never show their feelings) and Ed has had to prise stuff from me, so I do understand how hard it is for some CDers to share. It's funny really, because Ed has always been the most open person I've ever met, it was a refreshing change to meet a man who could talk about and show his emotions so freely. I think that is why I found it a shock that he had kept his CDing a secret from me (this man who told me everything). So, for a man who IS so open and honest, to find it hard to talk about CDing, I can only imagine how hard it must be for a less demonstrative person to talk about.

It really is worth breaking through that barrier of not talking. Yes, it's going to be worse than pulling teeth, but as we all know...no pain, no gain! I'm pretty sure Ed is a whole lot more comfortable talking about it now, we talk about it all the time, aversion therapy and all that! I think if we stopped talking about it, it would be easy for him to start to feel uncomfortable again. Also, it is good for me too, as it reminds me to be more open about how I am feeling. I can honestly say that all the negative feelings that I used to feel about CDing, have dispersed, through talking about them. Some of the things I've questioned him about haven't been easy to talk about, some of them have been silly, on my part, but it has been good to get things out in the open. I know we are both happier and more relaxed peole now, than before, when it was all bottled up.

Love,
Curly(SO)

Hello,

CJ thanks for doing a couple of things.

One would be for your incredibly eloquent wording in your post that gave us insight into who you are and excellent guidance and wake up calls to those who have an "accepting" mate and don't go necessarily take the extra step with a wife or SO to communicate more. That was most excellent.

Even after I told my wife it was still hard to dress around her. You're right it was guilty feelings and stuff.

Secondly CJ, thank you for showing users how to link to a post in the SO Only Section. I have been asked about this and your post will now give me a point of reference.

Thanks Curly for your (SO) response. They are so important to get!

I don't know if all the SOs know how much they totally help us understand ourselves better, as well as them when they give us the feedback like Curly just did.

Great thread and awesome job to Ms. CJ for starting it!

Beauty

Some good points CJ, but who am I to talk - here I am in the throws of a divorce and I did communicate - I still don't know why we are divorcing, maybe it is my crossdressing, but then again she puts so much faith in anyone but me. After we went ot family counseling for, what 10 sessions?! and she told the counselor over and over that my CD'ing didn't bother her as long as she did not have to see me dressed. I told her I would discuss this with her anytime , but she never asked other than a couple of time to verify that I was going to SCC. No one will ever convenienceme that the shrink that she is going to who is using "music therapy" and "tuning forks on her feet" did not put her up to this!!!! Anyway, communication is a good thing and it does help remove the "guilt" if in fact it is guilt that we feel??? As for me, I now have a house all to my self and closets full of shoes and clothes and I don't have to sneek around and watch out the door to see whose coming, I can wear gowns to bed and clean house in heels and mini's and go out for a ride or a movie and not worry if she will be home unexpectedly! and as our esteemded sister Sandy says, "Its wonderful being a woman!!"
Love your girls,
Virginia

Hi girls,

I was sitting her trying to put this all together in my head and the truth, at least for me is simple. When I realized that I was going to be at the very least, on the fringe of society, I just closed up.

No one ever got to know the real me. The real me was this person that only existed in my mind. Later I met my wife and felt so good about our relationship that I decided to open my life to her. But she was not accepting, and I closed back up.

I made several more attempts over the years but she was not interested in knowing who I really was, only in admonishing that person, and telling me that, that person was not acceptable to her.

My wife is not a real big talker, especially about feelings. I can not tell you how many times I have tried to talk to her over the years and she has just said "I'm too tired to talk, let's talk tomorrow" which of course never happens, or neither of us listen, just waiting for the other to shut up long enough to say what we want to say.

So? To the significant others out there wanting your DH to open up to you, I can tell you the risk is huge. Rejection from the person you love the most is devastating.

When you are rejected your entire life, it is hard to beleive that this one person is going to accept you, and as in my case and others, my SO did not accept me, and only tried to change me, which we all know was a doomed endeavor.

So? if you want to hear, you have to be willing to accept. Because without acceptance, your DH has everything to lose, and nothing to gain by talking to you.

Just one girls opinion

Love always,
Elizabeth

Hi all,

Beauty,

Thanks for the kind comments. But, really, this is a question I seem to constantly come back to; it's like a mosquito in my tent.


I really do understand, and I agree, about the risks involved in being completely honest and open. But isn't that the whole point of communication? To risk being who we are? And to show the Other (be he or she or it a spouse, a friend, or family) the person we are? If who we are isn't truly what the other person is looking for (as far as mates go), isn't it better to know this than to not know this? And isn't it better to know this sooner than later? Because this is what it looks like to me: yes, we often fear the possible rejection of who we are on the part of our SO's should we reveal our crossdressing, but we also, by not communicating, deprive ourselves of the chance to know whether or not our SO, for the sake of her love for us (or for whatever other reason), is the kind of person who can live with the fact that we're crossdressers. This, of course (and as has been pointed out elsewhere on the forum), is aside from the fact that, regardless of the way we may think society or even those close to us view crossdressing, don't we owe it to our "soul" mate to give her the truest picture possible of the shape and colour of our own soul? This can be very liberating for all involved.

If it isn't liberating--if it leads rather to resentment, conflict, and estrangement--well, at least we know where everyone stands. From this point on, it's up to each of us to determine how things will go. Some (most, I guess, for a variety of reasons--some good, some bad) will try to salvage the relationship and work out issues to the greatest possible satisfaction of all. Some will recognize that the house wasn't, as it turns out, built on a solid enough foundation to withstand the inevitable storm that'll come crashing when a CD feels rejected by his SO or when an SO feels betrayed by having been kept ignorant of so essential an aspect of her hubby's life. Sometimes, a parting of the ways may be necessary. Other times, not. However, you'll never, ever know which is to be the case if you don't talk with the one you love.

Yes, I know some here have lost much for the sake of being who they are. I'll never minimize those losses. But everyone involved stands to lose more by not being who they truly are. What do you want from life? What will make you feel loved and cared for? What will make you possibly happier? What is your bliss? What are your feelings about how far along you are in these goals? When you've put your (well-manicured) finger on some of these things, share them with the one person who most stands a chance to help you reach what your heart needs. And this goes for SO's, too, of course.

We too often look at this wrongly. For me, the truth is that, communication, talking about your feelings, is, to preventative oral hygiene, what divorces and bitter unions are to tooth extractions. Talking about your inmost feelings shouldn't be seen as a chore; it's more of a regular "maintenance" plan, one that might save you from much heartache and pain later in the relationship. Plus, it's an amazing feeling to know that another human being knows you, really knows you. In fact, aside from you, yourself, knowing your true self as well as possible, I think there's no other feeling like it!

Love,
CJ

Hey CJ

I couldn't agree more!!

*Hugs & Love*

I second that, CJ

Love,
Curly(SO)

CJ I agree 100%! Awesome post...

Sophie xx

CJ,

As usual, I love your ability to express yourself so clearly and concisely. And I can not agree more about what would be ideal. However, we don't live in a perfect world.

Everyone has things that they don't want anyone to know about. Even if it is just a thought. We keep them in a box in our personna, and they are intended to go to the grave with us. For many of us, Crossdressing was one of those things.

So when making a decision to tell or not to tell, there is more at stake then just finding out where we stand. How much of what is in the lock box are we willing to share? All of it? I don't think anyone has ever done that. Are you gonna tell your wife that, that cecerian scar really turns you off, after she sacrificed her body to give you this beautiful child? I don't think so.

So we are continually trying to decide what we must keep in the box, and what we can and should tell. We have been trained well. We have all heard others joke about transgendered people around those who don't know we are transgendered. So? We know that there is a very good chance our SO is not going to accept us. If for no other reason that it is just embarrassing to be married to a crossdresser.

Now here you are in your life. You go to work, you take care of your house and yourself. You try to have some entertainment. If you are a typical American you are in debt to your eyeballs, you have little league, PTA, Your friends, weddings to attend, bills to pay. And you ask yourself. What is the payoff if I tell my spouse about me? And what are the chances that she will accept it on a level I need her to?

And you think about your job, and your kids, and little league and all the other things that will be sacrificed if she does not accept you. So you decide to not tell. Because it is safer. Because life goes on if you do nothing.

I know where I stand CJ, but that does not help my kids any. It won't help us pay our bills that we don't have enough money for, because we are a one income family with a two income bills. It won't help with the embarrassment they feel when others look strangely at us, or when they hear the usual transgendered jokes as they go through life. I am sure they wish it never happened.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we are used to suffering in silence. And we fear that suffering will spread if we talk openly and honestly. Because the numbers say it is unlikely our SO will be accepting. There are other considerations.

I don't work, but if I did, I would have to worry about my SO outting me there. My wife outted me to my brother. It destoyed our relationship. Not being outted, but him just not accepting who I really am. You have to be prepared for it to get ugly. And the risk just makes it not worth it. So we gloss it over, and never really tell the truth. Even as in my case where my wife has known for a long time, I played it down. Told her I just liked to wear girls underwear.

I could not tell her that I continually thought about being a girl. That since I was 9, I thought I might be transexual. I could not tell her the feeling I got when I put on her dress while she was at work. Because if I did, the cost could be huge, and not just for me.

We all know by a certain age that this is who we are. And later we find out this is who we are always going to be. It is easier to stay with the SO we already have who don't accept us, or we fear won't accept us, than to tell her and gaurantee it, which is what the numbers say is likely to happen. Because we know that it is unlikely that anyone will accept us as we truely are.

Yes, I can empathize with the SO's who are trying to get thier DH to talk to them, truthfully, and openly. But unless they are willling to qualify it in a way that will make thier DH beleive that the cost of telling will not be so high, I doubt the average crossdresser is going to tell. His experience tells him not to, just like not telling her that dress makes her look fat.

It is all about risk assessment.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Hi all,

Elizabeth,

Those are good points you make, and I agree with a lot of what you say. I guess my focus was more on communication between a crossdresser and his "accepting" SO, as in the case of Mimi and her DH (or any other number of couples here). Once your spouse knows this about you, what can possibly be the advantage of holding back how you feel? Curly herself mentioned the fact that she became gradually more comfortable with her loquacious hubby, Ed, and with his "secret life," once they began seriously talking about his crossdressing.

No, unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world; I'll be the first to admit that. But, to take a favorite line from a favorite movie (Contact): when Jodie Foster's supervisor tells her the very same thing, she replies, "funny, I always thought that the world was what you make of it." It's more in our power to shape our own lives than we often realize. (And, yes, for the benefit of those in the peanut gallery, it's something I'm trying to apply in my own case, too! )

By the way, Elizabeth, and speaking of movies, I noticed that your signature is a quote from Waking Life. Now, how cool of a film is that? I must've watched it half a dozen times already!

Love,
CJ

Hey Elizabeth,

You do indeed raise some very valid points.

Now, this is just my personal opinion.....From my perspective the SOs who have the most trouble with their CDing mate, have some personal issues they must work through. Of course that is true of others who have a difficult time dealing with things outside the norm. One being fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of what is different, fear of change and fear of rejection; should they choose to embrace the differences in themselves and others. There is also the low self esteem issue i.e. the jealousy they have if they think their SO looks better than them. Also, there is the societal, religious and familial "training" they must overcome. This of course, goes both ways, as the CDer himself has quite a few of the same issues to deal with. Here in lies the common ground necessary for open and honest communication. Something else I have noticed is that many of these relationships that carck under the stress of the CDing issue, had many problems to begin with. I would think the biggest of those problems is the lack of communication. Without the honest, open and calm exchanging of feelings, opinions, and beliefs at the get go, the relationship will suffer.This is why I feel that it is so important for a person to know who they are and what they need from another before getting involved in a relationship. If one feels that they cannot be honest with their perspective partner at the beginning, one should move on.

A relationship NEEDS a solid foundation to be built upon.

Just one GG's opinion

*Hugs & Love*

Hi girls,


CJ,

I am not sure what it means to say your SO is accepting. I mean, accepting of what they already know. That is by no means a guarantee that sharing the true nature of crossdressing, if that is even possible, will not bring isolation. I think it is what Jassmine touched on in her most recent post, fear. I have known this feeling of being paralized by fear.

She also brought up low self esteem. I think this is particularly important because as crossdressers we have been trained our entire lives that we are defective humans, and perhaps even immoral and destined for hell. This is alot to overcome so our SO might understand us better. Especially when we don't even understand it ourselves.

Having said all of that, I would have loved for my SO to just one time ask me about it, or even be willing to listen. I can not tell you how many times she screamed at me that I was "SICK". You see, I risked it when I told her, and I was on the bad side of that risk. Yes, I agree that our marriage obviously had other promblems, namely no communication that was probably the real source of the failure of our marriage.

I guess what I am saying is that even the most accepting SO can not be expected to understand something we don't understand ourselves, and there is a risk in telling. The assessement of that risk verses the potential payoff is what I beleive makes many of us clam up, even when our spouses are accepting.

BTW:

I love Jodi Foster, and that movie is one of my favorites, and I love the line you quoted. I totally agree with it.

My kids turned me on to Waking Life. Because the nature of that movie, it makes me think about different things everytime I watch it, and I watch it several times a week, and even my children love watching it. It is a true masterpeice, I mean everything. The way the animation was done, the cinematography, the script, and the score is just outstanding. And it is a film, that in my opinion, has something for everyone. I highly reccomend this film.

Jassmine,

I think your points are outstanding, and I would like to talk about a few of them that I think are pivitol. FEAR. I think more miscommunication is made out of fear than any other single reason. This combined with low self esteem, which you also mentioned, are a very tough combination to overcome. For many of us our SO was the only breech in our world of isolation, and the fear of losing that is so great, we will not risk it, even if we have to lie. Because we know what being alone was like,

One need only look to the SO other section of this forum to find that most who accept this part of thier husband do so only begrudgedly, and with strict limitations. These limitations are a further rejection and reenforce the view that not only what we are doing, but who we are, is something to be ashamed of and hidden. Not just from society, but even our children. How are we to ever accept ourselves, and gain any self esteem as long as we are not permitted to even be who we are, and are required to act as if what we are is something shameful?

I don't have the answers to any of these questions, but I don't think open communucation is the only thing here. I don't want to be open so I can have my SO reject me even further. And whether or not this fear is rational or not, it is still there.

I would love for some other SO to chime in here who are not totally accepting and share thier views. Not that I don't value your's, but you are really the exception here. I mean you are the crossdressers dream of acceptance and understanding. I would like to hear from those who accept thier DH cding on a limited basis. As long as they do it in private, as long as they don't go out, as long as the kids don't know. As long as they are willing to keep thier dirty secret, a secret. I don't see how the average cder is ever going to gain self esteem, and trust as long as he is still held at fault.

If anyone could shed any additional thoughts on this, I would really love to hear them, because I beleive this is the crux of the problems between the cder and the SO.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Howdy Elizabeth

Again you do raise some very excellent points.

*Nod* we all know the fear of opening ourselves up to another. Ahzz has been able to accept parts of my nature that others could not. I have found that not opening myself up and being honest up front is just as bad as being rejected out right for it. One cannot hide one's true nature from themselves or their mate for very long.The person has problems from hiding who they are and in the long run their mate eventually learns of what is being kept hidden anyway, and this of course leads to their mate feeling angry and betrayed. So, while being honest about one's self up front is scary, it is an eventuality that will have to be faced.

She also brought up low self esteem. I think this is particularly important because as crossdressers we have been trained our entire lives that we are defective humans, and perhaps even immoral and destined for hell. This is alot to overcome so our SO might understand us better. Especially when we don't even understand it ourselves.

As too understanding Cding, I think the best vantage point to look at it from is the fact that we are all both masculin and feminine. Men who CD are very much in touch with their feminine nature and CDing an expression of that part of their being. Myself, I am very much in touch with my masculinity and have blended that part of my being with my feminine nature.I still dislike labeling certain characteristics as male or female. A man can be just as intuitive, kind, empathictic, sensitve, symathetic etc....as a woman. A woman can be just as dominant, strong, courageous, logical, practical etc....as a man. It is both halves that make the whole.

Jassmine,

I think your points are outstanding, and I would like to talk about a few of them that I think are pivitol. FEAR. I think more miscommunication is made out of fear than any other single reason. This combined with low self esteem, which you also mentioned, are a very tough combination to overcome. For many of us our SO was the only breech in our world of isolation, and the fear of losing that is so great, we will not risk it, even if we have to lie. Because we know what being alone was like,

One need only look to the SO other section of this forum to find that most who accept this part of thier husband do so only begrudgedly, and with strict limitations. These limitations are a further rejection and reenforce the view that not only what we are doing, but who we are, is something to be ashamed of and hidden. Not just from society, but even our children. How are we to ever accept ourselves, and gain any self esteem as long as we are not permitted to even be who we are, and are required to act as if what we are is something shameful?

Thank you Again, I stand in total agreement with you. I feel that the limitations that SOs put on CDing stem once again from fear, societal, familial, and relgious "training". Let's start with fear: Not only does the SO fear rejection from society themselves, but they also fear what that kind rejection will do to the people she cares about most, her mate and children. And Once again, this is a fear shared by both parties. More common ground Now we will look at how women through the ages have been "trained": The man provides support, the man is the strong, tough, brave one. The man is the head of the household. The man is the dominant one. Women must be submissive, alluring, non aggressive, must rely on the man for protection. So, when they see something in their SO that strays from some or all of this, on occassion, they see their man as being less manly. This too runs both ways as men are "taught" the same things. Yep, still more common ground

As you can see I have found more similarities than differences. It is within these similarities that understanding can be found for both the CDer and his SO

*Hugs & Love*

Jassmine,



That was an outstanding post and showed me perhaps what I needed to know. That even in our differences and frustrations there can still be common ground we both stand on, and my not even realize it.

Thanks

Love always,
Elizabeth