Genetic Related Comparisons

[Danielle La Belle]

A recent article in the current edition of "Esquire" magazine reports that scientists have demonstrated that 98% of our genetic makeup is also found in chimpanzees. That leaves only 2% of separation. Recently, in a reasearch program that was using chimpanzees for study, found that some males preferred the females activities and it some cases would more or less, go back and forth crossing the lines of separation in activities that were purely associated with the male and female gender.

On a lesser note, it has been known for decades that lower life forms often will have the male of the species transform into the female form when there is a shortage of gender-born females for purposes of survival of the species.

All of that said, we still have not scientifically explained the CD conundrum that we represent in this forum daily. If I were schizophrenic (hearing voices in my head) how could I possibly hope to change my condition if I listened too and acted on those voices?

Could we suffer from such a malaise and not know it? While not hearing actual voices, perhaps we are receiving cues from the brain that are normally blocked by the average non-CD male/female person.

Cues that come from an area that over-rides the "taboo" considerations of being a CD. After all, things that are considered "taboo" are merely restrictions that we have placed upon our social structure to insure continuity and survial of the species in most cases.

Perhaps we store this information in a special location that can be corrupted by genetic modification that took place early in the development cycle. As early perhaps as in the first 24 hours as a "zygote." Just something to think about.

Factual, science-based information, not social-emotional jargon will further this debate.

Your Turn!

[Alexandra]

"only 2% of separation" is nothing to scoff at.

For one thing, there is perspective. Standing on Earth looking at the star Vega and one that is ONLY 2% away from Vega (based on on a 180 degree horizon to horizon perspective, it would appear about 4 degrees separation) could very well be HUNDREDS of light years apart.

Then there is the 2% direct point to point separation. Again, taking Vega as an example: Vega is 25 light years away from Earth. A star that is 2% closer to Earth than Vega would be 24 light years away leaving a distance of 1 light year between the two. With our current technology, it would take us HUNDREDS of years to travel that 2% distance.

So, if you're still with me , there is plenty of time, space and distance in 2% of our genetic make-up to explain the difference between us and chimps.

[Danielle La Belle]

My argument stems not from the percentage difference itself, but the correlation in behavior to known subjects. The chimpanzee and the human species in particular, within that group have those that are CD.

Main Entry: per·cent·age
Pronunciation: p&r-'sen-tij
Function: noun
Date: circa 1789
1 a : a part of a whole expressed in hundredths b : the result obtained by multiplying a number by a percent
2 a : a share of winnings or profits b : ADVANTAGE, PROFIT <no percentage in going around looking like an old sack of laundry -- Wallace Stegner>
3 : an indeterminate part : PROPORTION
4 a : PROBABILITY b : favorable odds

2% of the distance between New York City and Los Angeles is just as observational and meaningful when comparing physical distance to a biological difference; Apples to turkeys. My point: Chimpanzees have demonstrated A CD personality in their culture. As a primate, can this mean that we both share a “trait” genetic or otherwise that perpetuates this phenomenon known as being a CD (transvestite)?

[Alexandra]

Here's another view . . . had humans not advanced beyond the primate stage, ALL animal behavor would be unlabelled and undefined. By having an advanced brain, we've broken everything down, applied labels and let a "select few" establish the rules of normalcy. If there is a CD trait between humans and chimps -- something I wouldn't doubt -- you can bet one of those "select few" will argue its an abnormalcy. Why?

Looking at this statement: "things that are considered "taboo" are merely restrictions that we have placed upon our social structure to insure continuity and survial of the species in most cases." I'm bothered by the suggestion that "we" (whoever they are) know whats best for the survival of our species. We're doing a pretty bad job of it right now if you ask me. Perhaps its the people who think they know whats best for us are the real abnormal ones?

Maybe I'm making little sense, but perhaps its the people who go around identifying abnormalcies in humans are the ones that are indeed abnormal?

[Danielle La Belle]

Main Entry: 1ab·nor·mal
Pronunciation: (")ab-'nor-m&l, &b-
Function: adjective
Etymology: alteration of French anormal, from Medieval Latin anormalis, from Latin a- + Late Latin normalis normal
Date: circa 1836
: deviating from the normal or average : UNUSUAL, EXCEPTIONAL <abnormal behavior>
- ab·nor·mal·ly /-m&-lE/ adverb


Main Entry: pri·mate
Pronunciation: 'prI-"mAt or especially for 1 -m&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English primat, from Old French, from Medieval Latin primat-, primas archbishop, from Latin, leader, from primus
Date: 13th century
1 often capitalized : a bishop who has precedence in a province, group of provinces, or a nation
2 archaic : one first in authority or rank : LEADER
3 [New Latin Primates, from Latin, plural of primat-, primas] : any of an order (Primates) of mammals comprising humans, apes, monkeys, and related forms (as lemurs and tarsiers)
- pri·mate·ship /-"ship/ noun
- pri·ma·tial /prI-'mA-sh&l/ adjective


Well, first and foremost, I will try not to answer with a question but rather sort out what we have discussed so far.

Humans are still in the order of “Primates.” We cannot directly or indirectly avoid this as a matter of species order as we are still in the mammal family.

For the concept of “abnormal,” I for one consider myself both “unusual” and “exceptional” so if that coincides with being abnormal, so be it. I regularly deviate from the normal or average person. You see, it is the context in which you phrase and imply that is the uptake of a cultural difference. Someone sneers at you and says, “you deviant” besides perhaps punching them in the nose, we can conclude that this person is for the most part, uneducated and dismal at best. Save the knuckle sandwich for someone more deserving!

Oh my, I think this girl just resorted to the “V” word (violence). Pardon me, I take offense with myself when I resort to such nasty tactics. Could break a nail, bummer you know!

So, if I deviate from average, could that not mean that I am above average, even exceptional. YES! So it is the context and the individuals attempt to smear me that really is foiled. There poor choice of words has only enhanced my position and indicated that they too must believe that I am superior. We should say thank you we knew that they would come around to appreciate us.

Finally, still beckoning an answer, with the previous correlation between the chimpanzee (CD), and the human (CD), could there be considered a link or reasonable corollary in genetic coding that is responsible for this behavior. Keeping in mind that humans like to think that they are in control and that what we do is a chosen concept (CD-ing) so how about the chimpanzee, is it chosen or is it ritualistic or is it just instinctive behavior?

[Alexandra]

"Well, first and foremost, I will try not to answer with a question"

that's allright, I don't see Alex Trebeck anywhere near here! Ha ha

As for your last qestion I vote: "instinctive behavior"

[Danielle La Belle]

Main Entry: in·stinc·tive
Pronunciation: in-'sti[ng](k)-tiv
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century
1 : of, relating to, or being instinct
2 : prompted by natural instinct or propensity : arising spontaneously <an instinctive fear of innovation -- V. L. Parrington>
synonym see SPONTANEOUS
- in·stinc·tive·ly adverb

Main Entry: choose
Pronunciation: 'chüz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): chose /'chOz/; cho·sen /'chO-z&n/; choos·ing /'chü-zi[ng]/
Etymology: Middle English chosen, from Old English cEosan; akin to Old High German kiosan to choose, Latin gustare to taste
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses
1 a : to select freely and after consideration <choose a career> b : to decide on especially by vote : ELECT <chose her as captain>
2 a : to have a preference for <choose one car over another> b : DECIDE <chose to go by train>
intransitive senses
1 : to make a selection
2 : to take an alternative -- used after cannot and usually followed by but <when earth is so kind, men cannot choose but be happy -- J. A. Froude>

Main Entry: pro·pen·si·ty
Pronunciation: pr&-'pen(t)-s&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Date: 1570
: an often intense natural inclination or preference
synonym see LEANING



Okay. We have two primary words. Instinct and chosen.
One sub-set word, propensity.

It has been proven time and again that chimpanzees, like humans, can learn sign-language to a degree. At this junction, their level of understanding is not at question. Rather, the fact that they make decisions, albeit primitive as they may be, they can choose to eat something or not. So, if we look at only “instinct” by itself, we may be inclined to over look choice. But when we add a sub-set word, “propensity”, we see that it is possible to have “an often intense natural inclination or preference.” There is an even stronger pull for “instinct.”

If we select the word “chosen,” we too can see that with the chimpanzee’s ability to make choices, again, albeit, limited as they may be, the chimpanzee (CD) may be making a choice after observed behavior from other chimpanzees in the community. Chimpanzees are often found imitating each other, thus they learn through visual stimulus, what is expected in behavior from the community.

If the test subject was never exposed to behavior other than typical male and female behavior and adopted the (CD) behavior then we can safely presume that no outside sources have effected the result. Also, we can now begin to consider our “words” to describe this behavior. Please, no “Planet of the Apes” references.

Going back to the word “instinct” and adding the meaning from “propensity [ “natural inclination or preference”]”, are we being lead to believe that rather than by choice, the test subject is acting on internal genetic drives that require the chimpanzee to act this way?

Oh my, it seems we are out of time girls. Stay tuned for the next installment. We are almost their. The question is, WHERE?

Thoughts anyone?

[Alexandra]

Just to comment on the signing chimp comment . . . from what little I know, chimps are most successful at communicating in sign their basic needs . . . "hungry" "want" "water" "more" . . . less successful with anything beyond this like for instance, choices. Having said that, there are some subjects who do real well but these results would not be typical.

[Danielle La Belle]

According to the “Center for Chimpanzee Conservation” they can use 30+ hand signs.

Central Washington University
The Chimpanzee and Human Communication Institute

CHCI is a sanctuary for four adult chimpanzees who communicate with humans and each other using American Sign Language (ASL). The mission of CHCI is to protect and care for these Chimpanzees, educate the public on the endangered status of wild chimpanzees, help improve the lives of all captive chimpanzees through ongoing research, and serve as a humane research facility for students. CHCI is home for these chimpanzees and is not open on a daily basis for entertainment purposes. CHCI believes that education is one of the most effective ways to save the chimpanzees and therefore offers one hour workshops (Chimposiums) to the public on weekends, as well as other, more formal educational programs. If you would like to make reservations for a Chimposium or lend financial support to this family of chimpanzees by becoming a Friend of Washoe, call (509) 963-2244.

Something we should clear up in this debate. Chimpanzee’s by nature, do not feel embarrassed, to that point, they do not need clothing or show any desire for it one way or the other. So, if “clothing” is the modus for a CD, how can we explain the chimpanzee (CD) behavior? Perhaps the test subject’s motivation is more along the lines of being truly transgendered. That is, suffering from GIDs perhaps.

So we need to state at this time, the understood differences in the T* community.

CD/TV: Male or Female that dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex.

TS: Male or female that routinely if not always dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex but does not have nor desire to change their current physical attributes.

TG: Male or female that suffers from GIDS and either is pre or post-op to the opposite sex. Ultimately, their intention is to get their “anatomy sex” matching with their “brain sex.”

I think without extrapolating further these definitions are fair, not conclusive perhaps, but fair enough to continue this thread.

If the male chimpanzee test subject demonstrates a propensity for female behavior, then we may need to conclude that this subject is showing signs of GIDS. Surely, we cannot consider that it is “sexual” in nature as at times a human CD may express. On the other hand, how can the chimpanzee show sexuality or know of it as a base form for communication. Do they “know” there are male and female chimpanzees or are they acting on “instinct?” Chimpanzees learn when they are young that males and females are diferent. Mostly a curiosity to young chimps, one cannot assume that it could be anymore than that.

So, does the behavior of our test subject meet the challenges of “knowing” or is it some form of genetic programming? Followed by instinctive behavior. If so, this will eliminate the concept of a chimpanzee as a CD. For that matter, by definition, the chimpanzee cannot be CD. It must by programming, adopt it’s natural genetic assumption, male-to-female of female-to-male behavior. Leading us to the next consideration. How confusing can this be for the test subject as they learn by direct interaction with their community. For our young test subject, researchers noted that the chimpanzee subject would sit alone in a corner of the play area while others were jousting and playing at being themselves. Often only consorting with the females of the group.

Not unlike many human teenage boys, looking to hang out with the girls as we all know was considered in different social settings, a positive kudos, while other settings may make the boy look too feminine (sissy) as the jock crowd might imply.

Most importantly, our test subject indicated through sign language that he was a she by selecting repeatedly the female sign. Others would sign their physical sex in every case correctly. Assuming that they are in the majority and that they have no known conflict with that personal appearance as self.

So we must asume that the test subject without any further consideration cannot meet any of the human criteria for the TS or TG categories. That the test subject merely is indicating a preference for the female of the species.

Perhaps, just like any normal human male that seems to adopt feminine considerations but remains hetrosexual to his physical form. A human male (CD)?

Circular thinking?

[Danielle La Belle]

In the matter of definitions, my reference source is TGWORLD.org.
There, it is implied that one that is TS, usually does not seek gender reassignment.

Whereas, the TG individual being transgendered, believes that they are in the wrong body (GIDS) and wish to make it right with their brain.

I have gone to several other sites that provide a "glossary" of terms and for the most part, the desciption as defined is similar.

Anyone else have a different opinion? I am all ears. Please quote your source if possible.

[Danielle La Belle]

TGWORLD.ORG
____________________________________________
Sexual Identity and Gender Identity Glossary
____________________________________________

This pamphlet is designed to give heterosexuals and people who are just starting to
think of coming out some basic common terms with the gender and sexual identity
communities, so that they can speak somewhat intelligently with members of these
communities without seriously offending people or appearing totally clueless. Keep in
mind that:

The definitions of these words are not standardized throughout society, and are used
differently by different individuals and in different regions. In particular, these
definitions assume the existence of two and only two each of sexes, genders, and
sex/gender roles, which are separate and distinct from one another; but many people see
them as overlapping, closely related, or as a limited view or model of a much richer
reality.

The meanings of words change over time. Changes in thinking and attitudes toward sexual
and gender identity are taking place in society as a whole and within the sexual and
gender identity communities. The meanings of these words will continue to change. For
instance, some words are listed For example, there is a slow but clear movement in
society away from thinking of most human behaviors as appropriate to one sex and not
appropriate to another, toward thinking of most human behaviors as appropriate to both
sexes and both genders.

Definitions in (this early version of) this pamphlet were gathered by a bisexual-identified
white male from the Midwest and Northeast of the US. In other parts of the world and other
communities than those he is familiar with, the same terms may mean different things, and
other terms may be used for the same and other important meanings.

Despite these caveats, many people find the terms listed here useful in varying degrees
for describing their experience, if only as a starting point for describing how their
view of the world differs from that represented here.

Corrections and additions to these words and definitions (from the US and elsewhere) are
welcome. Please send them to the TGWorld.

Sexual Identity and Gender Identity are similar in some ways and very different in others.
Both refer to how one thinks of a person. The existence and perpetuation of gender and
sexual identities is based in the historic and continuing oppression (systematic
mistreatment condoned by society as a whole) of people do not conform to certain aspects
of society's gender roles. Gender roles refer to the clothing, behaviors, thoughts,
feelings, relationships, etc., that are considered appropriate or inappropriate for
members of each sex.

However, sex, gender identity, and sexual identity refer to different aspects of oneself.
Therefore, one may be any combination of sex (male/female), gender (masculine/feminine),
and sexual identity (straight, bisexual, lesbian/gay.) In recent history, people
oppressed on the basis of different sexual identities (bisexuals, lesbians, gay men) and
people oppressed on the basis of gender identity have formed communities which are partly
separate and partly overlapping with one another. Because of this historic separation,
someone who is a member of one of these communities does not necessarily understand and
prioritize the issues of others of these communities. One who belongs to more than one of
these communities may feel welcome in both, but usually neither addresses all one's needs
or the way that one's needs from different communities overlap or interact.

Gender identity refers to how one thinks of one's own gender: whether one thinks of oneself
as a man (masculine) or as a woman (feminine.) Society prescribes arbitrary rules or gender
roles (how one is supposed to and not supposed to dress, act, think, feel, relate to
others, think of oneself, etc.) based on one's sex (whether one has a vagina or a penis.)
These gender roles are called feminine and masculine. Anyone who does not abide by these
arbitrary rules may be targeted for mistreatment ranging from not being included in
people's circle of friends, through the cold shoulder, snide comments, verbal harrassment,
assault, rape, and murder based on one's (perceived) gender identity.

Sexual identity refers to how one thinks of oneself in terms of whom one is sexually and
romantically attracted to, specifically whether one is attracted to members of the same
gender as one's own or the other gender than one's own. Society prescribes arbitrary rules
that one should be sexually and romantically attracted to members of the other gender than
one's own, and should not be attracted to members of the same gender as one's own. Anyone
who does not abide by these arbitrary rules may be targeted for mistreatment ranging from
not being included in people's circle of friends, through the cold shoulder, snide
comments, verbal harrassment, assault, rape, and murder based on one's (perceived) sexual
identity. (See homophobia and biphobia.) When one's sex and one's gender identity are
different, one may base one's sexual identity on either one. Alternatively, one may have
two sexual identities, one as a man and one as a woman.

These are terms often used within the sexual identity and gender identity communities.
Self-identification terms are often spelled with initial caps (e.g. Queer, Bisexual) to
emphasize that they refer to how one think of oneself, rather than how someone else labels
one. (For instance, researchers often classify bisexual-identified women and men as
lesbians and gay men and transvestites as transsexuals, obscuring important distinctions.)


Cross Dresser (CD): One (regardless of the motivation) who wears clothes, makeup, etc. which are considered (by the culture) appropriate for the other sex but not one's own.

Transgender community: Formal term for gender community.

Transgendered (TG): One who switches gender roles, whether just once, or many times at will. Inclusive term for transsexuals and transvestites.

Transsexual (TS): One who switches physical sexes (usually just once, but there are exceptions.) Primary sex change is accomplished by surgery. (See SRS.) Hormone therapy, electrolysis, additional surgery, and other treatments can change secondary sex characteristics. (See Pre-op TS.)

Transvestite (TV): One who mainly cross dresses for pleasure in the appearance and sensation. The pleasure may not be directly erotic. It may be empowering, rebellious, or something else. May feel comfortable in a focused transgender role while cross dressed. May occasionally experience gender dysphoria.

I stand corrected. I used an old copy of terms provided by TGWORLD.org. The latest terms are supplied with this installment.

Thanks for the review Jenna...........

[Beauty]

It takes a strong and good person to admit to making a mistake Danielle.

Thanks to both of you for clearing this up.

I'd always thought of it like Jenna said, but when Danielle posted the definition I thought, "Oh no.. not another change."

I call myself TG'd a lot because there are things I do that are kind of TS, but not enough for me to consider myself a TS. I enjoy being male. Just not all the time.

Thanks again.

Beauty

[Danielle La Belle]

I think it is fair and reasonable to point out that while these definitions may be challenged by other information sites, it seems practical to employ what we have learned in future conversations. I for one, printed out the definitions from TGWORLD.ORG so I can refer to them in the future.

I would like to also note that we as a society rely on certain sources as in encyclopedias, and more often than not, the reliable dictionary. I say this with some jest as I have learned there are dozens of different "English" oriented dictionaries. I have been told that in Cambridge England, there is on display the largest of these dictionaries containing over 600,000 recognized words in the English language!

Wow!

Considering on average there is just 1,200 words we use in everyday conversational “English,” there must be a glut of high quality $10.00 words that I am not using.

I trust that everyone that followed this thread had a good time in reading or participating. I hope that on the next venture we can entice others to “debate” as we have here, with the intention of expressing a point of view for information sake and not make winning a personal requirement. To debate and express an opinion countered with reliable facts where available, makes for far more interesting reading that a “he said, she said war of words.”

Hugs

Danielle La Belle – (Danielle007)
Editor – Open Directory Project
http://dmoz.org