Crossdressers-Haven.com

The Christan point of view on cross dressing towards men or boy is based on the last part of Deuteronomy 22:5 They for get to read the first part of Deuteronomy 22:5 that say, " The women shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man." Yet I see a lot of Christan women and girls wearing pant (trousers) that are made for the females and yet a kilt that was cut and made for men and is considered female clothing. Christians are human and tend only to read and apply only that which put others below them. Also they are basing the code of dress on today's standards.

When Charles Finney was preaching here in New York State All the boys were wearing dresses, petticoats and girls pantaloons with lace on them. And the preachers of the time did not call the boys cross dresses most boys wore dresses up till the age of seven or a little shorter time period. I know because I am a Christan myself and I hate people who use the bible to hurt other people or to make them selves look better.

See:
http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... hp?p=39879
http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... hp?p=65289

Some other links to read:

http://members.aol.com/gnlnews/deut22v5.html

http://members.aol.com/gnlnews/index1.html

Not wanting to get into a religious "debate." but some of the rebuttals are" Simply, "so you think God is perfect? and you don't think God makes "junk?"
Well, honey, here I stand one of "HER" creations! What do you think!?
As I saw in a recent "movie" about quantum physics and quantum mechanics, here we sit on this speck of dirt called Earth in some "backwater" galaxy in amounst the billions of stars and galaxies in the universe and even if you believe in some all powerful entity that put it together - do you actually think SHE is concerned with whether or not YOU wear a dress??? I think NOT!
Just remember it is MY considered opinion that those of us who actually assend to the plane of attempting to "balance" our male and female (anima) into our daily lives are the next phase in human evolution!
Good luck, my sister, and good hunting!
Virginia

I am sorry I met no offence to any one on this forum. I Was sticking up for you not trying to place blame or put any one down. I was trying to show that the so called Christan aren't always right. not how wrong or if God makes mistakes or not. This is not the place to talk about God or the bible. My point I was trying to make was the Chriatans some times run their mouth with out knowing what they are talking about.
Agian I am verry sorry for afending you or any one else here on this forum.

Who ever is in charge of this baord please remove this post because I do not want to afend my friends.

Mark -

I don't think that Virginia took any actual offense to your post but, rather, she was just giving some 'rebuttals' that can, and should, be used when the so-called Christians do "run their mouth without knowing what they are talking about." I use similar rebuttals on my sisters and brother-in-law, who are the epitome of the "holy rollers."

The first two links that Donna provides are for threads in the Hot Topics section wherein this particular Bible verse had already been discussed, and might provide you with some additional answers.

Unfortunately, you are not allowed access to Hot Topics until you have been a posting member here for at least one month. At that time, send a PM to either CJ or Sharon(SO) requesting access to the Hot Topics section.

I hope I speak for both Virginia and Donna, and many others here, when I say your attempts at 'sticking up for them' are appreciated, although it may not have been crystal-clear in your initial post.

Thank you for clearing up the 'muddy waters'!!


- SL

"Turned away
By a misrepresentation

Stained glass and white washed tombs
The hearts of those who spoke to you
Were never homes to the God
They tried to show you

They spoke out of prejudice and ritualism
They themselves were lost

Angels fold their wings and weep along with us
Watching you shun Christ's sacrifice"

- "Ravage Ritual" by Zao, from the album Where Blood and Fire Bring Rest

Basically, don't let the people who tend to point out faults be the ones to determine who you are and how you live and think. Bands like Zao have caught crap from "The Church" simply because they play a form of music that is mis-labeled as "demonic" or "Satanic" simply because they have a sound that is quite untraditional both lyrically and musically to what they are used to. The band Tourniquet had a song called "Besprinkled in Scarlett Horror" which has some interesting lyrics about one Johannes S. Bach:

"They said to Bach three hundred years ago
'You work in the church there's something you should know
We hired you to write music that glorifies
But theses toccatas and fugues just simply horrify'
He said, 'they're simply notes put together in bars
And why you think that's wrong I just throw up my arms'"

We're all simply people, and if the people who God created more equal than the rest don't like that... well... they should realize that there is no such thing as "more equal" or "less equal". They have faults, too.

From what I have read of the history of the time, the prohibition in Dueteronomy refers specifically to one of the pagan religions of the time, in which some of the temple priests dressed as women and functioned also as prostitutes. This sounds to me like a perversion of the practices of the priests of Cybele, but I could be wrong.

A lot of the Old Testament prohibitions are related, at least tangentially, to sex. The Israelites were a desert people, and low-tech civilizations have it rough in the desert. Ergo, any sort of practice which detracts from that people's ability to procreate/survive might be proscribed. Hence the prohibition of "the spilling of seed".

Hi all,

Mark,

Please rest assured that you haven't been 'offensive' in any way. The tone of your post implies a quest for understanding and a search for ways to reconcile crossdressing with religious faith. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Far from it! Actually, it's welcome... but, as Donna and others have pointed out, the topic of Deuteronomy 22:5 can be (and has been) discussed in the Hot Topics area precisely because any discussion of matters of faith can sometimes be delicate and has the potential to rub some people the wrong way.

So, please don't worry and, when the time comes, consider asking for admission to the Hot Topics area (and, no, it's not as 'Hot' as some might think it is--members who are civil in the general access areas of the forum tend to be civil in the restricted areas as well).

I take this opportunity to welcome you to the forum and I hope you enjoy yourself here and that you make new friends.

Love,
CJ

Thanks to all of you. I really like this forum very much and the last thing I would want to do is to offend any one here. Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts and up lift me-Thank you all!

Mark no offense taken.

Jaye I thought that was pretty interesting about the stuff attached to men dressing as women. I get the feeling that there is a lot of stuff left out in the Bible that folks knew at the time it was written which is no longwer common knowledge. For example the prohibition on women entering the church with their head uncovered which at the time of writing would have been taken to mean that she was a prostitute open for business. (This might be a good time to remember that Jesus befriended tax collectors, prostitutes and so on fairly regularly.) Or my favorite which is that it is forbidden to burn your children as an offering to Moloch. There must have been a reason it was neccesary to make this in particular illegal.....On a more benign note after you harvested your fields (I guess they had stopped wandering by then) you had to leave the left overs for the poor. Not the sort of law we see the powers that be are anxious to enforce today.

The point that a people wandering homeless in the desert would need fairly strict laws about a great many things is well taken also.

Thanks for the informative tidbit

Absaroka

Now this is from a Jewish person point of view of the whole thing as my own religion can be just as silly as any other but when was the last time these laws and ways of life have updated for the moderen times. If so many people take the bible as a stricket set of laws then I belive those are the ones you have to worry about. It seams simmulare to those who take a stricket look at the Corran (sp?) they twist it to there own will.

Ok just something I thought I would say.

For a religious tradition that dates back to the bronze age, the Judeo-Christian tradition has withstood the test of time pretty well, if you discount the numerous wars iand acts of bigotry ts misinterpretations have caused. Any more comments will probably exile this thread to Hot Topics. :-)

Grace

Mark -

I have since been in contact with Virginia, and she confirmed that she did not take any offense to your post.




- SL

Sorry coming in late on this topic, my question to anyone who quoted this passage at me (or to me) would be, if God is the creator of all things in the world, and he knows, made and sees all things, Why would he say thou shall not do this, then having made me, why then give me the desire to do just that?

To any one that replied that it was a test, to test my loyalty, my answer would be why set me such a test that he knows I would be bound to fail, having given me such a strong desire to do this thing.

Just my views on this issue.

Tracy