Hi Absaroka,
What a fascinating conversation! It brings back college-era bull sessions in which I remember girls and guys vying over the superficial advantages either way:
"You guys have it lucky. You don't have to worry about makeup, hair, nylons, etc. etc."
"Whaddya mean, girls are sitting pretty. All they have to do is wait to be asked out, then say 'Sorry, but no.'"
"At least boys can ASK. Girls can't [true at the time]. You ever think about sitting waiting, waiting for the phone to ring and it never rings?"
"At least you girls don't have to shave."
"What about legs? You think shaving legs is nothing?"
"Your faces, I mean."
"Well, that's not very much to ask."
"Oh yeah, scrape scrape. Every cotton-pickin' day. And for what? Girls."
"Yes, but you just try having periods sometime!" That was usually the clincher.
But the conversations never went deeper, past the obvious and into the deeps of Female Ocean vs. Male Ocean.
I so wish we could hear more conversations like the one you had, Absaroka. Having heard one lesbian viewpoint, what about hetero? There must be a vast spectrum of possible answers as to a) What being a woman feels like, versus a man, and b) What a woman feels the relative advantages and disadvantages are, at a deeper level than what I've quoted.
GGs??????? Please do speak.
Love, Robyn Katie
the grass on the other side of the fence is dead.
Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn
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Absaroka
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Years ago a survey was sent to white college students about what financial compensation they would feel was appropriate due to circumstances rendering them black. The general agreement was a very high figure. I forget the amount but it is discussed in a book named Separate and Unequal by a guy named Hacker. Anyway I had the idea of applying this to gender and asked a number of friends a similar question. The men all said that they would want about 10 million dollars as compensation for circumstances that left them female-similar to the amount they would want as compensation for becoming black. Many expressed concerns about how either change would affect their career. The question is expressed as leaving family out of it- you have to be hypothetically single and childless. You get to decide if you will be a heterosexual woman or a lesbian. It's all about social status, earning power, and self perception. Also part of the question is that the circumstances of why you change are left unspecified, you have to use your imagination for that part. Sort of like fiction mania.....
What was interesting was the womens response. They almost unanimously agreed that you couldn't pay them enough to become a man, that if they were struck male no amount of money could be specified for their loss, as opposed to men who could name a figure for their loss. In all cases both male and female, it was regarded as a loss.
I asked them the question with regard to race as well. I only asked this to white people. I'd love to hear how much black people would feel they should be paid in compensation for losing their blackness but at the time it felt like too personal a question to ask. I suspect that the answer would be along the lines of you couldn't pay me enough but I don't know that.
Anyway what was interesting was that the women often transfered gender to that as well. As in it wouldn't be so bad to be black as long as I could remain a woman. But I would like being a black man even less than I would like being a white man.
I'm not labeling anything racist or sexist. These were people presumably honest answers as to how they felt about who and what they are and how changing that would affect their feelings about themselves and their place in society and as such it is not up to me to judge them. But I thought they were very interesting answers.
Absaroka
What was interesting was the womens response. They almost unanimously agreed that you couldn't pay them enough to become a man, that if they were struck male no amount of money could be specified for their loss, as opposed to men who could name a figure for their loss. In all cases both male and female, it was regarded as a loss.
I asked them the question with regard to race as well. I only asked this to white people. I'd love to hear how much black people would feel they should be paid in compensation for losing their blackness but at the time it felt like too personal a question to ask. I suspect that the answer would be along the lines of you couldn't pay me enough but I don't know that.
Anyway what was interesting was that the women often transfered gender to that as well. As in it wouldn't be so bad to be black as long as I could remain a woman. But I would like being a black man even less than I would like being a white man.
I'm not labeling anything racist or sexist. These were people presumably honest answers as to how they felt about who and what they are and how changing that would affect their feelings about themselves and their place in society and as such it is not up to me to judge them. But I thought they were very interesting answers.
Absaroka
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
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Robyn Katie
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In fact stunning.
Absaroka, you have a tigress by the tail there.
Those women's fixed desire to remain female at all costs upsets all the preconceptions -- from Freud's long exploded "penis envy" to macho myths of male superiority -- and defies all the data showing the disadvantages, loss of prestige, loss of money, loss of control, and so on, that women really do face in society --
And STILL they wouldn't take any amount of money to be turned into men!
Confirms me in my conviction that being a woman beats everything. To all the questions: Even a poor woman? A fat woman? An ugly woman? An old woman? I haven't got a solid answer. But I still instinctively feel that conviction.
Wonder what the women's reasons were? How much it had to do with being the birther of life? The visual icon of humanity (or not)? Something to do with roles? Ideals? Feet firmer on the ground, head more surely in the clear fresh air? The quality of female emotions, thinking, awareness, mutual affection and support? Or ... well, what might be their reasons?
I do note the men and the women both looked at the suggested change as a loss. I'd guess that most likely derives from "better the devil you know." After all, as we've noted, knowing what the other gender feels like, and thus properly estimating the value of the change, is a big area of ignorance for us all.
I'd like to see your survey done large-scale.
Love, Robyn Katie
Absaroka, you have a tigress by the tail there.
Those women's fixed desire to remain female at all costs upsets all the preconceptions -- from Freud's long exploded "penis envy" to macho myths of male superiority -- and defies all the data showing the disadvantages, loss of prestige, loss of money, loss of control, and so on, that women really do face in society --
And STILL they wouldn't take any amount of money to be turned into men!
Confirms me in my conviction that being a woman beats everything. To all the questions: Even a poor woman? A fat woman? An ugly woman? An old woman? I haven't got a solid answer. But I still instinctively feel that conviction.
Wonder what the women's reasons were? How much it had to do with being the birther of life? The visual icon of humanity (or not)? Something to do with roles? Ideals? Feet firmer on the ground, head more surely in the clear fresh air? The quality of female emotions, thinking, awareness, mutual affection and support? Or ... well, what might be their reasons?
I do note the men and the women both looked at the suggested change as a loss. I'd guess that most likely derives from "better the devil you know." After all, as we've noted, knowing what the other gender feels like, and thus properly estimating the value of the change, is a big area of ignorance for us all.
I'd like to see your survey done large-scale.
Love, Robyn Katie
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Georgia(SO)
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Sheez. Another essay question. 
What does it feel like to be a woman? It feels like me. I don't know anything else. What I do know is the difference between being a girl, a gal, a female person and a woman. (hear me roar? sorry, couldn't resist).
Well, eing a "woman" is partially tied up in being sexual - but not solely by any means. When I feel like "a woman", I am aware of the power of me - not just sexual, but not separate from the sexual, sensual side. It's all mixed in there together. When I feel crappy, have a really bad hair day, feel like a clod, for whatever reason, I just feel like a female person. I doubt that makes sense to anyone else..
There is nothing that could compensate me for being changed into a man - except possibly for a day just to see what it is like. Of course I make less money that most men, I am more likely to be accosted, etc., etc., etc. Life's not always fair.
For me, and solely for me because I don't dare speak for any other person, I can't even imagine such a thing. Being a woman is all tied up with my experiences as a mother - both pregnant, nursing and now the mother of grown children - of being me. There is just nothing in me that wants to be something different. Changing from a white woman to a black woman or a Native American woman - that might be interesting for a little while.
OK. So, why wouldn't I want to be a man, I ask myself. It's not that men aren't cool - I really like men - not just sexually, but as people. Men are fascinatingly complex. But I can't imagine myself as a man - can't imagine myself as anybody except me. And the essence of me is female.
I suspect that the reason that some men (certainly not all) would be willing to trade money for being a woman is caught up in their own personal views of women. Not counting the TG world, I suspect that many men think they wouldn't have to work so hard if they were women (HA!), that they wouldn't get turned down by potential sexual partners (DOUBLE HA! - try waiting around to be asked out - still a real issue), that they wouldn't have to be tough and could cry at will (ok. we can cry more often than men without being thought odd, but those who consider crying to be a sign of weakness will think that women who cry easily *are* weak).
So. You got me. I have no solid idea why I wouldn't take any amount of money to suddenly and irrevocably turn male, except that, as a I said, the essence of me is female. No amount of money is worth my essence.
-georgia (so)
What does it feel like to be a woman? It feels like me. I don't know anything else. What I do know is the difference between being a girl, a gal, a female person and a woman. (hear me roar? sorry, couldn't resist).
Well, eing a "woman" is partially tied up in being sexual - but not solely by any means. When I feel like "a woman", I am aware of the power of me - not just sexual, but not separate from the sexual, sensual side. It's all mixed in there together. When I feel crappy, have a really bad hair day, feel like a clod, for whatever reason, I just feel like a female person. I doubt that makes sense to anyone else..
There is nothing that could compensate me for being changed into a man - except possibly for a day just to see what it is like. Of course I make less money that most men, I am more likely to be accosted, etc., etc., etc. Life's not always fair.
For me, and solely for me because I don't dare speak for any other person, I can't even imagine such a thing. Being a woman is all tied up with my experiences as a mother - both pregnant, nursing and now the mother of grown children - of being me. There is just nothing in me that wants to be something different. Changing from a white woman to a black woman or a Native American woman - that might be interesting for a little while.
OK. So, why wouldn't I want to be a man, I ask myself. It's not that men aren't cool - I really like men - not just sexually, but as people. Men are fascinatingly complex. But I can't imagine myself as a man - can't imagine myself as anybody except me. And the essence of me is female.
I suspect that the reason that some men (certainly not all) would be willing to trade money for being a woman is caught up in their own personal views of women. Not counting the TG world, I suspect that many men think they wouldn't have to work so hard if they were women (HA!), that they wouldn't get turned down by potential sexual partners (DOUBLE HA! - try waiting around to be asked out - still a real issue), that they wouldn't have to be tough and could cry at will (ok. we can cry more often than men without being thought odd, but those who consider crying to be a sign of weakness will think that women who cry easily *are* weak).
So. You got me. I have no solid idea why I wouldn't take any amount of money to suddenly and irrevocably turn male, except that, as a I said, the essence of me is female. No amount of money is worth my essence.
-georgia (so)
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Robyn Katie
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Erin L
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Robyn Katie, to your questions I would answer: Of course I wouldn't want to be a poor woman, a fat woman, an ugly woman, or and old woman, because I dislike the idea of being poor, or fat, or ugly or old, regardless of my gender. At those times when find myself really wishing I was female, of course I see myself as young, fit, attractive and comfortable. But the telling thing is that it is usually the other way around - when I envision myself as young, fit and attractive, I see myself as female.Robyn Katie wrote:To all the questions: Even a poor woman? A fat woman? An ugly woman? An old woman? I haven't got a solid answer.
Hugs,
Erin
I'm not that kind of girl.
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Robyn Katie
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Hi Erin,
I agree that for us the very idea of femininity for ourselves is closely linked to our feelings of youth, beauty, grace, energy, gladness, and a sort of perfect fit to not just clothes, but surroundings, other people, and the universe.
(A GG might give that the horse laugh, but nobody said we were being realistic ...)
"Sure, you'd like to be a woman, but poor? fat? ugly? old?" is the conversational stopper a skeptic uses in trying to talk us out of our desire to "be a woman," whatever form that takes, imaginative or otherwise. I gave it as an example of how extreme the question of choice could get.
So the issue isn't whether you'd *want* to be poor, fat, ugly or old as a woman (or a man). The issue was more "Do you still want to be a woman, even then?"
And the somewhat shaky answer I've got is probably yes. Rather a woman, other things being equal.
Not that I'll act on it.
Love, Robyn Katie
I agree that for us the very idea of femininity for ourselves is closely linked to our feelings of youth, beauty, grace, energy, gladness, and a sort of perfect fit to not just clothes, but surroundings, other people, and the universe.
(A GG might give that the horse laugh, but nobody said we were being realistic ...)
"Sure, you'd like to be a woman, but poor? fat? ugly? old?" is the conversational stopper a skeptic uses in trying to talk us out of our desire to "be a woman," whatever form that takes, imaginative or otherwise. I gave it as an example of how extreme the question of choice could get.
So the issue isn't whether you'd *want* to be poor, fat, ugly or old as a woman (or a man). The issue was more "Do you still want to be a woman, even then?"
And the somewhat shaky answer I've got is probably yes. Rather a woman, other things being equal.
Not that I'll act on it.
Love, Robyn Katie
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Robyn Katie
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Georgia, what I wrote above relates to one of the things you said about men thinking unrealistically about women: that they wouldn't have to work so hard ... wouldn't get rejected sexually ... could cry without being thought odd or weak ...
I think maybe men thinking themselves into womanhood may begin with such preconceptions, but if they're honest with themselves they quickly abandon the idea of a real living woman as some sort of prettily posed princess, despite what the ads would like us all to believe. If they use their eyes they know women work harder than men (and run harder to stay in the same place, like Alice). They know women get dumped, ignored, pushed away, insulted and disappointed in as many ways as men do. (Trouble finding a match is the human condition, not the male condition.) As for crying, many men do cry, and those who don't cry, bellyache. It comes to the same thing.
Pretty quickly any male gendered being who's considering what it's like to be a female gendered being comes up against the reality of women at every age, of every condition, and what they are really like, not what the storybook says. That's what this thread is probing.
On the other hand, fantasy lives. And wants to untangle the hundred years' growth of forest surrounding Sleeping Beauty and trying to understand what it might be like being her (once she's awake) -- as a living, breathing, challenging person, not an immobile image. So that's mixed into this thread too. And hooray for fantasy. Like Sleeping Beauty, we all need a kiss sometimes.
Love, Robyn Katie
I think maybe men thinking themselves into womanhood may begin with such preconceptions, but if they're honest with themselves they quickly abandon the idea of a real living woman as some sort of prettily posed princess, despite what the ads would like us all to believe. If they use their eyes they know women work harder than men (and run harder to stay in the same place, like Alice). They know women get dumped, ignored, pushed away, insulted and disappointed in as many ways as men do. (Trouble finding a match is the human condition, not the male condition.) As for crying, many men do cry, and those who don't cry, bellyache. It comes to the same thing.
Pretty quickly any male gendered being who's considering what it's like to be a female gendered being comes up against the reality of women at every age, of every condition, and what they are really like, not what the storybook says. That's what this thread is probing.
On the other hand, fantasy lives. And wants to untangle the hundred years' growth of forest surrounding Sleeping Beauty and trying to understand what it might be like being her (once she's awake) -- as a living, breathing, challenging person, not an immobile image. So that's mixed into this thread too. And hooray for fantasy. Like Sleeping Beauty, we all need a kiss sometimes.
Love, Robyn Katie
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Georgia(SO)
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Robyn Katie,
I agree with you that anyone who is seriously considering the question of whether they would like to be a woman - whether they will ever act on it or not - is going to have a bit more realistic view of women's lives. I thought that the guys who said they'd take cash to transform into a woman were all non-TG'd. (Did I misunderstand?)
For non-TG males, I'd suggest that their answer was a) not something they seriously considered before the question was asked and thus the answer was pretty much off the top of their head, and b) those are the guys I was talking about that think that being a woman is way easier.
TG people must have a totally different outlook, I think. While the posts on this thread suggest that the woman ya'll imagine is not usually old, fat, poor or grumpy, - and indeed my sweetie's girl side is cute, bouncy, has perfect hair and about 16 years old (he is 57...), I think that the desire to make the outside look like the inside feels is a totally different experience. And among those people who would really want to transition, I doubt you'd have to bribe them to do so.
I was most interested, originally, in the question you asked - what does it feel like to be a woman. Hell if I know. I don't know what it feels like to *not* feel like a woman...
BTW, I do love the essay questions!
-georgia(so)
I agree with you that anyone who is seriously considering the question of whether they would like to be a woman - whether they will ever act on it or not - is going to have a bit more realistic view of women's lives. I thought that the guys who said they'd take cash to transform into a woman were all non-TG'd. (Did I misunderstand?)
For non-TG males, I'd suggest that their answer was a) not something they seriously considered before the question was asked and thus the answer was pretty much off the top of their head, and b) those are the guys I was talking about that think that being a woman is way easier.
TG people must have a totally different outlook, I think. While the posts on this thread suggest that the woman ya'll imagine is not usually old, fat, poor or grumpy, - and indeed my sweetie's girl side is cute, bouncy, has perfect hair and about 16 years old (he is 57...), I think that the desire to make the outside look like the inside feels is a totally different experience. And among those people who would really want to transition, I doubt you'd have to bribe them to do so.
I was most interested, originally, in the question you asked - what does it feel like to be a woman. Hell if I know. I don't know what it feels like to *not* feel like a woman...
BTW, I do love the essay questions!
-georgia(so)
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Anita
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Georgia wrote:
Georgia, that view is interesting to me. While I don't have the classic "woman trapped inside" feeling, I have some part of me that is female. Of course it's my own definition of female--what else have I got to go on but my own experience? Still, the feelings I have seem to match the way women talk about what it means to them to be women.
I always had this ability to some degree. It's this talent that partly defines a so-called "sensitive" man, and many men go through their whole lives being sympathetic to women's points of view, while still keeping a strict male ID. That's the way it's supposed to be, if you're going to do it at all.
Why it changed for me is part of the mystery that surrounds this whole topic of gender feeling. It became more and more painful to keep doing this process, because it wasn't working very well. If I was really going to match women's experiences the way I felt them inside, then I needed to let go of some rigid boundaries that everyone else considered to be a normal part of the process.
Anyway--I had tried every way I knew to express those certain qualities that everyone labeled "female," but which I knew more and more were a vital part of me, too. And I saw that all the compromises were never going to work for me--that's a scary realization; a real fork in the road.
I guess I'm grateful to that pain. If it hadn't gotten intolerable, I would not have had the courage to explore this new territory. This is not a decision one takes lightly.
This thread is great! It just keeps rolling along.I was most interested, originally, in the question you asked - what does it feel like to be a woman. Hell if I know. I don't know what it feels like to *not* feel like a woman...
Georgia, that view is interesting to me. While I don't have the classic "woman trapped inside" feeling, I have some part of me that is female. Of course it's my own definition of female--what else have I got to go on but my own experience? Still, the feelings I have seem to match the way women talk about what it means to them to be women.
I always had this ability to some degree. It's this talent that partly defines a so-called "sensitive" man, and many men go through their whole lives being sympathetic to women's points of view, while still keeping a strict male ID. That's the way it's supposed to be, if you're going to do it at all.
Why it changed for me is part of the mystery that surrounds this whole topic of gender feeling. It became more and more painful to keep doing this process, because it wasn't working very well. If I was really going to match women's experiences the way I felt them inside, then I needed to let go of some rigid boundaries that everyone else considered to be a normal part of the process.
Anyway--I had tried every way I knew to express those certain qualities that everyone labeled "female," but which I knew more and more were a vital part of me, too. And I saw that all the compromises were never going to work for me--that's a scary realization; a real fork in the road.
I guess I'm grateful to that pain. If it hadn't gotten intolerable, I would not have had the courage to explore this new territory. This is not a decision one takes lightly.
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Robyn Katie
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Georgia, I share your puzzlement. Because putting myself in your shoes (2" heels please), I try to imagine myself being asked, "What does it feel like to be a man?"
Um ......
Well, here is some of the answer.
First and foremost, I have to admit I've never EVER felt I was really a man. Even in the finest male moments I have hesitated to call myself by that noun. Partly this was because I never really felt the transition from boyhood -- there was never any bar mitzvah-type moment when I could say, Okay! I'm a man! I just kept on feeling like a kid who somehow never got beyond kidhood.
(I think women have more such moments they can regard as confirmations that they really are women. Right from the onset of puberty they get reminded bigtime ... and of course birthing a child pretty much scotches any remaining doubt.)
So first and foremost, feeling I am a man isn't part of my conscious experience. I have felt male, on and off, but feeling female has happened just about as frequently.
Okay, but what does malehood *feel* like? (To me, of course--can't speak for anyone else. Nor do I feel I share much in common with, or any understanding of other men -- maybe that'll be obvious.) What's it like being this man I am perceived as? I'll try to answer as it has been over the years, not just now.
It's felt like a shell, a crust I was trying to break through. Dulled, emotionally heated, a touch belligerent. Crusty in temper, sometimes. Smoldering and anxious. Vulnerable interior wincing against anticipated hurt and having to be shelled over. Vigilant. Tested constantly. Enjoying, though, those moments when I'm on top of the world, king on the throne. Enjoying even better the darts of vision when it presents itself.
Physically being male feels sore to me. Trying to get away with murder sometimes, with accompanying guilt and sensations of being caught red-handed. Feeling complicit in a deception that may at any moment be unmasked, and then it will all be over.
Jockeying for advantage, like bulls in the herd. There have been moments of feeling triumphant, cocky, cool; but the easy well-greased happy-horses**t feeling some guys seem to have (which is dramatized onfield in football, for instance, and celebrated in every beer ad) eludes me.
At the core of me it feels clouded and dark. Thinking in male manner is tough, stringy, tense, with a strong competitive edge. The body is there growling and snapping, looking for something to bite, sit on, screw, possess, discard. Lot of morose resentment saved up over small slights. Old but usually suppressed reflex to kick things.
Struggling to overcome hard obstacles by arm strength and grit. Grappling in the mud. Mean in temper, occasionally savage. Ungenerous with moments of grandeur in which the drinks, psychologically speaking, are on the house, and I give away the farm.
Okay, I admit direct descriptions fail. Similes perhaps? Feeling mannish is more like a bear than a deer. More like a train than an airplane. More like lead than a balloon. More like an armadillo than a fish. More like a pitiless desert sun, and less like a pretty brook flowing through a lush meadow.
In contrast, my femalehood as I sense it seems light, airy, etc. -- a lot of opposites to the above.
Now I know I haven't said anything at all helpful, because I haven't managed to describe how it feels. Just grabbing words out of the air. I know what it feels like deep inside and on the surface too, but I can't say it. Some might say I've just arbitrarily divided up the different sides of my personality into male over here and female over there, and that may be true in some sense.
All of which is to say that I sympathize with any GG who is pestered by a guy asking, "What does it feel like to be a woman?"
What do the rest of you think? Having done this bad a job of it, I have to feel many of you could do better. How would you describe feeling male as contrasted to feeling female?
Love, Robyn Katie
Um ......
Well, here is some of the answer.
First and foremost, I have to admit I've never EVER felt I was really a man. Even in the finest male moments I have hesitated to call myself by that noun. Partly this was because I never really felt the transition from boyhood -- there was never any bar mitzvah-type moment when I could say, Okay! I'm a man! I just kept on feeling like a kid who somehow never got beyond kidhood.
(I think women have more such moments they can regard as confirmations that they really are women. Right from the onset of puberty they get reminded bigtime ... and of course birthing a child pretty much scotches any remaining doubt.)
So first and foremost, feeling I am a man isn't part of my conscious experience. I have felt male, on and off, but feeling female has happened just about as frequently.
Okay, but what does malehood *feel* like? (To me, of course--can't speak for anyone else. Nor do I feel I share much in common with, or any understanding of other men -- maybe that'll be obvious.) What's it like being this man I am perceived as? I'll try to answer as it has been over the years, not just now.
It's felt like a shell, a crust I was trying to break through. Dulled, emotionally heated, a touch belligerent. Crusty in temper, sometimes. Smoldering and anxious. Vulnerable interior wincing against anticipated hurt and having to be shelled over. Vigilant. Tested constantly. Enjoying, though, those moments when I'm on top of the world, king on the throne. Enjoying even better the darts of vision when it presents itself.
Physically being male feels sore to me. Trying to get away with murder sometimes, with accompanying guilt and sensations of being caught red-handed. Feeling complicit in a deception that may at any moment be unmasked, and then it will all be over.
Jockeying for advantage, like bulls in the herd. There have been moments of feeling triumphant, cocky, cool; but the easy well-greased happy-horses**t feeling some guys seem to have (which is dramatized onfield in football, for instance, and celebrated in every beer ad) eludes me.
At the core of me it feels clouded and dark. Thinking in male manner is tough, stringy, tense, with a strong competitive edge. The body is there growling and snapping, looking for something to bite, sit on, screw, possess, discard. Lot of morose resentment saved up over small slights. Old but usually suppressed reflex to kick things.
Struggling to overcome hard obstacles by arm strength and grit. Grappling in the mud. Mean in temper, occasionally savage. Ungenerous with moments of grandeur in which the drinks, psychologically speaking, are on the house, and I give away the farm.
Okay, I admit direct descriptions fail. Similes perhaps? Feeling mannish is more like a bear than a deer. More like a train than an airplane. More like lead than a balloon. More like an armadillo than a fish. More like a pitiless desert sun, and less like a pretty brook flowing through a lush meadow.
In contrast, my femalehood as I sense it seems light, airy, etc. -- a lot of opposites to the above.
Now I know I haven't said anything at all helpful, because I haven't managed to describe how it feels. Just grabbing words out of the air. I know what it feels like deep inside and on the surface too, but I can't say it. Some might say I've just arbitrarily divided up the different sides of my personality into male over here and female over there, and that may be true in some sense.
All of which is to say that I sympathize with any GG who is pestered by a guy asking, "What does it feel like to be a woman?"
What do the rest of you think? Having done this bad a job of it, I have to feel many of you could do better. How would you describe feeling male as contrasted to feeling female?
Love, Robyn Katie
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Georgia(SO)
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Robyn Katie...
Damn, girl, you can write!
I, OTOH, have been working myself stupid on a year-long historic study and have used up all my good words.
One question here and then I'm off to rustle up some supper. Is there a difference between feeling like a man and feeling like a male person? God knows, I have days (and a couple of years here and there) when I'm not feeling at all woman-ish - just like a non-descript person who has girl parts. For me, that's the equivalent of the shell you spoke of. It's not, by any means, my favorite way to be. Sorta feels dead. Fortunately, it doesn't happen often.
gotta run,
-g(so)
Damn, girl, you can write!
I, OTOH, have been working myself stupid on a year-long historic study and have used up all my good words.
One question here and then I'm off to rustle up some supper. Is there a difference between feeling like a man and feeling like a male person? God knows, I have days (and a couple of years here and there) when I'm not feeling at all woman-ish - just like a non-descript person who has girl parts. For me, that's the equivalent of the shell you spoke of. It's not, by any means, my favorite way to be. Sorta feels dead. Fortunately, it doesn't happen often.
gotta run,
-g(so)
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Anita
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3068
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:55 pm
- Location: Burlingame, CA (San Francisco Bay area)
Georgia exclaimed:
But for awhile, I would have nights where my girlself would feel like that--a non-descript person, and worse yet, one with fake girl parts. The sheer novelty of the new self is enough to keep motivation high if dressing is a special occasion, or is a new discovery (like it was for me.)
But a few years in, when it's a mode for doing ordinary things like shopping for groceries or running a support group, it can have nights that are just as dreary as any times that came before. The honeymoon's over, and it's business as usual, only in woman mode. How well can you handle it then, is a big question.
In some ways, this kind of depression was worse than male mode, because I was out there on my own in this new life--I was my own support system, in the beginning. I had to rely on my new-found enthusiasm and charm as a gal to survive, and when it deserted me for any reason, I felt vulnerable like I'd never felt before.
I've since gotten past this, somehow. Maybe it comes from having more transgender friends, who don't ignore my girl self if she's not being the life of the party. They don't feel awkward about comforting her when she's down.
and I agree. That was good, Robyn.Damn, girl, you can write!
Whew! That's a vivid description. I guess I occasionally have a night where I still feel strongly male, but it doesn't happen much any more. So the contrast with the blah sort of nights isn't so great.God knows, I have days (and a couple of years here and there) when I'm not feeling at all woman-ish - just like a non-descript person who has girl parts.
But for awhile, I would have nights where my girlself would feel like that--a non-descript person, and worse yet, one with fake girl parts. The sheer novelty of the new self is enough to keep motivation high if dressing is a special occasion, or is a new discovery (like it was for me.)
But a few years in, when it's a mode for doing ordinary things like shopping for groceries or running a support group, it can have nights that are just as dreary as any times that came before. The honeymoon's over, and it's business as usual, only in woman mode. How well can you handle it then, is a big question.
In some ways, this kind of depression was worse than male mode, because I was out there on my own in this new life--I was my own support system, in the beginning. I had to rely on my new-found enthusiasm and charm as a gal to survive, and when it deserted me for any reason, I felt vulnerable like I'd never felt before.
I've since gotten past this, somehow. Maybe it comes from having more transgender friends, who don't ignore my girl self if she's not being the life of the party. They don't feel awkward about comforting her when she's down.
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Erin L
- Miss Emerald Goddess
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:38 am
- Location: Queens, NY
Great thread.
My work crisis hasn't eased much, as I still have a threat hanging over me of being fired, even though I seem to be the only one who thinks so (my four direct reports and a few confidants in the company all say they can't see it happening, because it would be illogical - the company can't afford to lose my institutional memory; all true, but, as we all know, corporations are not logical, and are often vengeful).
What is interesting (now that I've had a little time to reflect) is how I've reacted to all this, particularly when seen from a TG perspective. In truth, I haven't felt much like Erin lately. Except for the odd moment now and then, I have felt little desire to dress, or even underdress. Maybe it's because my situation requires me to fight back hard, and I've been conditioned to think of that as a male aspect rather than a female one.
I've missed Erin, though. And that's why I posted a segment in the autobiography thread several days ago. But I feel like it's wartime, and I have to tuck her away, somewhere safe. Or, maybe another possible explanation is that, while normally I run into Erin mode as a release, as a way to escape from the pressures of maleness, maybe now it's Erin who has run into me-mode in order to be protected from what is happening outside.
My work crisis hasn't eased much, as I still have a threat hanging over me of being fired, even though I seem to be the only one who thinks so (my four direct reports and a few confidants in the company all say they can't see it happening, because it would be illogical - the company can't afford to lose my institutional memory; all true, but, as we all know, corporations are not logical, and are often vengeful).
What is interesting (now that I've had a little time to reflect) is how I've reacted to all this, particularly when seen from a TG perspective. In truth, I haven't felt much like Erin lately. Except for the odd moment now and then, I have felt little desire to dress, or even underdress. Maybe it's because my situation requires me to fight back hard, and I've been conditioned to think of that as a male aspect rather than a female one.
I've missed Erin, though. And that's why I posted a segment in the autobiography thread several days ago. But I feel like it's wartime, and I have to tuck her away, somewhere safe. Or, maybe another possible explanation is that, while normally I run into Erin mode as a release, as a way to escape from the pressures of maleness, maybe now it's Erin who has run into me-mode in order to be protected from what is happening outside.
I'm not that kind of girl.
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Anita
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3068
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:55 pm
- Location: Burlingame, CA (San Francisco Bay area)
Hi Erin--
I thought that maybe this reply was too off-topic, and started to send a PM. Then I decided it might be better to put it here after all.
It takes energy to be Erin. If you're in survival mode at work, you don't have the energy to spare for her.
This energy issue is what I saw when I discovered my inner girl at age 49. I had always suppressed her--didn't even dress for 32 years, not significantly. It took a certain energy to suppress her, though. Secrets are not passive; they take 'x' amount of energy to hold them down. When you're young, 'x' is a small percentage of your total energy.
When you hit 49, though, 'x' suddenly becomes a much larger percentage. I saw that the balance had tipped. To suppress Anita was going to require more energy than I had available. I was starting to find that it was taking more and more energy to tamp her down. It scared me badly, and finally I had to let go of the secret, and come out. It took eight months, but I knew that was the only answer, for me.
So I guess I'm saying that you're fortunate in that survival mode puts Erin on 'hold.' Your body/spirit says, "There's not enough energy to do both of these, so the 'girl' has to stay quiet."
Whereas for me, it was more like, "There's not enough energy to both survive and suppress this girl. You have to make a choice." You can see why it scared me, but once I made the choice, relief was immediate. I was willing to pay any price to express the girl, because I saw that it had gotten so extreme that I couldn't do much else.
And for me, it worked out, and I have few regrets about it. I wish I could say that it would work equally well for others, but that's not true. Still, for some of us, that survival mode that you're facing at work gets transferred to our feelings about our femme selves, and we HAVE to express her--she becomes survival for us.
Be glad that at least your TG feelings are not intruding on your more immediate economic concerns. I hope you can begin to see a positive outcome there.
I thought that maybe this reply was too off-topic, and started to send a PM. Then I decided it might be better to put it here after all.
It takes energy to be Erin. If you're in survival mode at work, you don't have the energy to spare for her.
This energy issue is what I saw when I discovered my inner girl at age 49. I had always suppressed her--didn't even dress for 32 years, not significantly. It took a certain energy to suppress her, though. Secrets are not passive; they take 'x' amount of energy to hold them down. When you're young, 'x' is a small percentage of your total energy.
When you hit 49, though, 'x' suddenly becomes a much larger percentage. I saw that the balance had tipped. To suppress Anita was going to require more energy than I had available. I was starting to find that it was taking more and more energy to tamp her down. It scared me badly, and finally I had to let go of the secret, and come out. It took eight months, but I knew that was the only answer, for me.
So I guess I'm saying that you're fortunate in that survival mode puts Erin on 'hold.' Your body/spirit says, "There's not enough energy to do both of these, so the 'girl' has to stay quiet."
Whereas for me, it was more like, "There's not enough energy to both survive and suppress this girl. You have to make a choice." You can see why it scared me, but once I made the choice, relief was immediate. I was willing to pay any price to express the girl, because I saw that it had gotten so extreme that I couldn't do much else.
And for me, it worked out, and I have few regrets about it. I wish I could say that it would work equally well for others, but that's not true. Still, for some of us, that survival mode that you're facing at work gets transferred to our feelings about our femme selves, and we HAVE to express her--she becomes survival for us.
Be glad that at least your TG feelings are not intruding on your more immediate economic concerns. I hope you can begin to see a positive outcome there.