The wide TG spectrum

General talk about CD/TGing and gender topics that aren't necessarily fun things we do while en femme, or for gender-driven discussions.

Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn

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KimberlyS
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Post by KimberlyS »

Thank you everyone for the responses and great ones at that. I love it when we can talk about a controversial subject and keep it from boiling over.
Anita wrote:... acceptance within the community is certainly not a given. You can press a hot button when you talk about going out in less than binary fashion--either male or female.
Oh I know it is a HOT BUTTON. I have received plenty of flack going by "joe in a skirt", or a "guy in a dress".

I have been toying with changing my alias to "joe" instead of KimberlyS. I mentioned this on a different chat. And got lots of flack on that. And I have gone to the "Guys wearing skirts" forms and get flack for being to feminine and not macho enough. I guess I just can not win. And I am at a stage that I really do not care. This is me and I am being who I am. I just am still surprised at the flack I receive from within the TG community from those seeking acceptance from others.

kimberlys-cd
joe in a skirt
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I am a physically male person that likes to wear feminine clothes at times.
Just trying keep a balance for my self along with keeping my wife and kids in mind.
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Violet
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Post by Violet »

I faced a choice a long time ago, do I 'go with the flow' and try to fit in with the rest of society? Or do I do what's right for me, and damn the torpedoes? I chose the latter, and my time as a cross-dresser is just a natural evolution of this attitude toward societal control mechanisms and spurious rules or 'moral order'. Thus I tend to get it from all sides, I'm hated by normals who don't like gothic freaks, straights who don't like queers, gays who don't like bisexuals, straights and gays who don't like TG's, TG's and others who don't like androgynous people, vanilla types who don't like sado-masochists, hardcore doms and subs who don't like 'switches' (people who will both dominate and submit); Christians who hate atheists/satanists/pagans/witches, atheists/satanists/pagans/wiccans who hate people that won't believe *exactly* what they believe, right wingers who hate left wingers, left wingers who hate people that aren't left wing *enough*, luddites and down-wingers who hate transhumanists, and natives who hate whitey. Sometimes it seems like oppressed people's biggest enemies are themselves. Black Christians try to put gays down in their struggle for liberation and dignity. Evangelical Protestants, who founded a whole *country* for the freedom to worship Christ the way they choose to, try to deny others their religious freedom. You know who, exactly, all of this division and strife benefits? PEOPLE WITH POWER AND MONEY. Encouraging this division is nothing but another social control mechanism designed to keep the powerless where they are, slave ants for the consumerist/corporatist power structure. So instead of sectioning ourselves off into ever smaller and less effectual 'market segments' of political activism, why can't we try a new strategy? Let's all of us fight for *our* right to be who *we* choose and to be afforded our basic dignity, and unite with everyone else who is willing to do the same in our struggle against the fear mongering power elite?

Because it's *hard*, that's why. When I first was discovering the joys of cross dressing and the intense relief of being 'out' about my persona (about the same time when I first joined this site), I really felt as if I had something to prove. I would go whole weeks without putting on pants; grab any excuse to cross, attend any function and walk into any place i wanted to en femme. I got called every name in the book, ill treated and even assaulted a few times, but I expected all of that. What hurt was losing respect from a lot of my old friends and family. Not precipitously, not to the point of thundering condemnation, but I could see it in their eyes, the hurt and the judgement and lack of understanding. People who I know of as liberal and open minded, saying to me that I look silly (as if I didn't before) or that I'm some kind of freak (as if I wasn't before). Stealth for me will probably never be a matter of 'passing'. Even when I do dress to pass, I still dress dangerous/sexy and use heavy make up just like a gothic girl, because that's who I am, that's my self definition and the way I present myself in the world, and just how I like to look. But it invites extra attention, which pretty much ruins any chance I would have to pass as a biological female. But I have 'stealthed' a bit in toning it down how often or the extent of which I dress and choosing more carefully the situations that I go into in that mode, even though it makes me cringe inside to think that I'm compromising with the will of social control. Just because it's so exhausting to face that much disapproval and dis-respect from the world and especially from those I care deeply about.
"There's something wrong with him. He should be mine, but he's not. His madness... his madness keeps him sane..."
Delirium, 'the Sandman', Niel Gaiman
INSANE GOTHIK DIVA SYNDROME
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CJ
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Hmmm.... that's an interesting post, Violet.

Social control, eh? I'm wondering if the kind of control you're talking about is an "organized" form of control. I know quite a few people you describe as having power and money who are just as ordinary as you or me and are as much on a quest for a self-defined identity as is any person on this forum. Could it be that this is another form of prejudice, this belief that those who are wealthy somehow act as puppetmasters for the rest of us? (And I say this as someone who's basically living from paycheck to paycheck.)

It seems to me it's too easy to see "plots" or "mechanisms of social control" only where our own identity politics will make us look for them. We forget that our own views are far from objective or neutral. I think yours is the best attitude, in that, regardless of who may or may not be pulling the strings, just damn the torpedoes and be who you know yourself to be. Of course, this is a hard road to walk, just because the social pressure to conform is extremely high. We see it in gays who want to appear straight, in crossdressers and transsexuals who want to appear as either women or men but not as both (or neither), and--perhaps more importantly but in a much more veiled fashion--in social groups (or sub-groups) that are fairly hermetic and exclusive but want to appear open and tolerant. After all, respect for diversity is all the rage, these days... as long as it's our kind of diversity and not the other guy's.

Most crossdressers do not pass in public; most crossdressers choose to remain hidden from public view. Is there a link between these two facts? Yes, I think so. As Kimberly stated, a joe in a skirt or a guy in a dress gets a resounding rebuff from all sides--from straights, from gays, and from other (passing) transgendered folks. Again, this is (mostly unconscious and internalized) social pressure to conform. In Freudian terms, the superego usually wins out over the id and all our wailing and gnashing of teeth is but the expression of our beloved ego caught in the crossfire.

Is there a solution to this problem? No, in my opinion. Humans, being who and what they are, and if you have at least three people forming a group, you'll see two persons finding the third one weird or bizarre in some way. And that third one is apt to leave in order to go form her own group (thus perpetuating the cycle). The fact that this forum exists at all is proof of this. Call me a cynic, if you will, but I paint what I see. The trick is not to leave the group or to condemn its members, but to stay and to try to show the other members what the advantages are (both to them and to us) of valuing positively a certain eccentricity in an individual or a diversity in the group.

Those advantages are, to me, pretty plain to see; any person who is allowed to thrive as an individual will also thrive as a member of the society in which she lives. The workplace, for instance, is a microcosm that reflects this. I remember my days as a book and magazine store manager. I was successful at it (and the proof of this was in the increased sales) because I always strove to see my employees as whole-hearted individuals rather than as punch-clock drones. What are their talents? their likes and dislikes? their aptitudes and desires? what was going on in their personal lives that affected the time they spent at work? who did they want to be (or to become)? I addressed all these things head-on and assigned employees to tasks and projects that took all this into account. The result? Most were happy to come in to work and many, in fact, became devoted, going that extra mile to please--management, the public, each other, whatever--and this, despite the fact that I sometimes lost the battle with head office to have their wages increased.

Society "at large" sort of works like that, too. Value people as individuals; allow them to thrive as individuals; give them the opportunity to express their individuality in a context wider than themselves; your doing so will increase their happiness. There's little a happy person will not do for the group(s) to which she belongs. This is what the "normalizing" and intolerant segments of the population need to learn. Notice I said, "segments," not "majority"; I don't believe the majority of people are intolerant. Ignorant and/or unaware of certain social and psychological realities, maybe, but not intolerant. And people can learn. It's one of the things human beings do best. So, call me an optimistic cynic, if you want. Just don't call me "Shirley." :mrgreen:

This is a mighty fine thread. I like it very much.

Love,
CJ
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Amelie-Laveau
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Post by Amelie-Laveau »

Lol, sometimes I think we use too many big words to describe something that should be quite simple,, wearing the clothes that we desire to wear.

Maybe if more people were simple minded like me, maybe going out dressed wouldn't be such a conflict in their lives.

Maybe we think too much, maybe we put too much worry in our words rather than just doing it.

Just a thought.

Being insane is also an asset.
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CJ
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

True, Amélie, so true. :lol: This is also very true: "being insane is also an asset." Hmmm... I'm sure we must have a couple of Insane Gothik Divas on this board that would agree. :P

If, on the other hand, you're into analytical overkill (like I am, sometimes), check out the Harvard Law School document below. It's a 50-some-odd-page PDF document that's well worth reading for those who can stomach the post-deconstructionist geek-babble it contains. If you don't have the Adobe Acrobat Reader (needed to view the document), you can find it here: Acrobat Reader Download Page

Sex, Gender, and Discrimination

Happy reading, y'all (and have a dictionary close at hand)!

Love,
CJ
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Violet
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Post by Violet »

When I think about the 'social control mechanism' I call it that, a mechanistic process of tendencies that can be exploited for the gain of a few. All humans have certain tendencies within us - to want to conform to the will of the majority (pack/herd mentality); the tendency to seek higher social status and control over others; to unite with those who are like unto you and fight against those who seem different or alien; to reduce cognitive dissonance by eradicating ideas we don't like (instead of trying to understand them). I think most of us agree these are tendencies that are not a part of our better nature. The social control mechanism is not just some monstrous cabal of rich people who control society, it is made up of the myriads of actions of individual people, forming cliques and 'market segments' that fight each other for territory and dominance, petty tyrants in every walk of life playing on others' worst impulses to increase their own standing. This creates an environment which is ripe for manipulative people to use many tactics like 'divide and conquer' to enhance their own ruthless way of life. Creating economic systems in which wealth feeds on wealth while the poor and hopeless are continually degraded, creating governments which serve the interests of wealthy people and corporations over those of ordinary joe six pack, creading school systems where students are taught to conform and obey authority rather than critical thinking and will to power, creating religions that teach people to deny their own interest for a chance at pie in the sky. I'm sure that most successful or wealthy people are fair minded and don't wake up every morning saying 'doo-de-doo, today I'm going to enhance my own share of the social control mechanism by degrading the workers' dignity and dividing the oppressed against each other!' But the sad reality is, it's a hell of a lot easier for someone to get rich and powerful by manipulation and deceit than by empowering the individual and teaching people to respect each other. Once you're caught in that system, as I'm sure we're all aware, it's just easier to go with the flow and preserve the status quo, let the powerful people walk all over us instead of getting together, standing up and stopping them. That's why the system came to be in the first place: because stopping it was not the soft option, and given the choice most people will choose the soft option.

Oh, and I certainly agree that insanity is often more of a help than a hindrance. :mrgreen:
"There's something wrong with him. He should be mine, but he's not. His madness... his madness keeps him sane..."
Delirium, 'the Sandman', Niel Gaiman
INSANE GOTHIK DIVA SYNDROME
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