hi - *LOCKED*

[Loretta Ann]

I consider myself fiscally handicapped, too. But it's nothing a raise couldn't fix.

Thanks CJ. I guess I need a better spell checker. This one doesn't adaquatly hide all of my weaknesses.

Love Darlene.

[Lorna]

Hi Jennifer,

(Sorry sweetie, another long post I know)

I can totally understand your hurt, anger & frustration over your current family situation. But I have to believe that your father loves you very much. That is the bottom line, despite the fact that you & your mother may have been deceived into thinking that he was "one type of person" for so many years. In fact I too feel that he could have given you and your mother some indication much earlier on than he did. He could have at least told your mother much sooner (preferably before they even married) and then from that point they could have worked together on formulating a strategy to let you and your sister know with minimal emotional trauma to either of you.

Since I am not married and have no children, I am not going to pretend that I have the “right answer”. But I can tell you that some TGs I know with children choose to let them know as soon as the kids are old enough to grasp the concept. Others choose to wait until their kids are fully grown. It is usually in the latter case that the proverbial sh** hits the fan where adult children are shocked and often alienated from their parents, not so much that “Daddy liked to wear dresses” but moreso that something of this magnitude was kept from them.

They wonder - why so secretive?

Why keep secrets? In some cases people in general keep secrets to protect themselves from potential danger. But in many other cases secrets are kept simply because people just feel too ashamed.

I’m not the best in the world at making people feel better but I do sincerely hope that all of the responses here can help to ease the pain that you and your mother currently feel. But I will leave you with two crucial thoughts:

1) Your father is a human being (no human being in this world is perfect) and a provider first, and a crossdresser second. Just remember that he will always love you & will always be there for you, regardless of what’s hanging in his closet.

2) My father had a violent temper, and put my mother, sisters and I through years of physical and emotional abuse. He did not drink, but he used to savagely beat all of us whenever he was irked. When I was 12 I suffered a broken wrist at his wrath simply because I forgot to put the milk back in the refrigerator. And then, some fathers out there drink, some do drugs, some just abandon their families outright. I just hope that maybe this can help you to put things in perspective.

I send ***hugs*** to you and your family sweetie... be strong!!

[Mrs. Missy(SO)]

Hi Jennifer,

I've been thinking about your posts for a few days and wanted to respond to you with a few thoughts.

Jennifer, these first few paragraphs may also be of help to your Mom.

After many years of a wonderful marriage with a loving and kind man, I learned that he liked to wear feminine things. Unlike you and your sister who discovered it accidentally, my husband told me this one day. I could tell he was embarrassed and uncomfortable as he told me about his need to wear female clothing. My initial fear was that this activity was sick, and I wondered if the crossdressing might lead to something else that I didn't understand. I was naive about crossdressing -- I never even realized it existed.

I felt as if my feelings about this subject went from one extreme to another -- one day I would feel fine about it, and then another day I would be depressed and wonder what our friends would think if they knew that our "storybook marriage" had a little dark side to it.

My husband and I sat down and talked whenever one of us had concerns or fears or just wanted to get something off of our chest. I needed more information about this since I couldn't run to any of my friends for support. My husband found this site and it helped me to better understand crossdressing. I realize that my husband can't explain why he feels the need to occasionally dress in this way. He tells me that when he feels this strong desire and then does so, he experiences a calming effect. I can see that crossdressing has not changed him for the worse, but for the better. He is still the kind, loving, generous, thoughtful, intelligent man that I was initially attracted to during our dating years.

Through the turmoil of the first few months of learning this, I kept one thing in the front of my mind -- my husband and I are soulmates. Our love for each other is deep and nothing will ever come between us. I was determined to get the information I needed to help us both through this.

Jennifer, I'm sure I would be most unhappy to unexpectedly see my Dad dressed in women's clothing as you and your sister did. Maybe the advice that I gave to your Mom would be helpful to you, too. It seems that your Mom and Dad have raised a good daughter -- one who is willing to get information and to seek the help of friends. Through your words, you have painted a picture of a wonderful and loving father -- one who raised you to be a fine young lady. He obviously loves you very much and is probably deeply saddened that this has happened in a way he never expected. I don't feel that he has done anything wrong. It seems that you love him very much, too. This love is the all important cement that holds a family together, whatever may happen.

As many others have said, it would be beneficial if you could take some time, maybe a few minutes every day, to sit down and try to calmly have a heart-to-heart talk with your Dad. It might be helpful if it was just you and him. When my husband and I would sit down and talk, we always reassured each other that we wanted to proceed in a loving manner.

I have come to fully accept this side of my husband. It is my hope and prayer that you and your Mom will reach this stage, too, and that your family will be blessed with a loving bond that will remain with all of you forever.

You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Hugs,

Mrs. Missy(SO)

[JenniferMu.(GG)]

I don't know where to start with this as I've got so much running round my head sometimes I can't think, but school breaks up today for two weeks holidays and although I haven't been able to front up for school this week at least the holidays will give me time to try and collect myself.

I've read and re-read what you've all said to me and a lot of it I've said to my Mum but I'm not too sure how much she's taking in just now. She doesn't ever say much about some things and right now she's thinking more than she's saying and I don't want to push her as sh'es very fragile just now, but I told her last night that we all have to get together more and thrash this right out one way or the other, we can't go on living like this. I just can't go on day after day seeing her go down hill like she is. My Mum is a lovely looking lady and right now she's looking like someone who just isn't my mother. She usually looks just like a clone for Jean Simmons in her old movies but lately she's looking more like Jean did in 'How to make an American quilt' and that's just not going to continue.

yesterday I went to see my Granma because she knows most stuff about most stuff and she told me some interesting things. I told her that some of my concern is that I'm thinking what my father is doing is not just about wearing womens clothes and i think it goes further than that. If it was just about the clothes then why do men go all the way to look like a woman right down to all the make up and foundation garments and learning to walk, talk and sit like a woman. I mean if it was just about a damn dress then maybe ok but all this other stuff like bras and panties which can't be seen, well surely that signifies something else. I mean a man doesn't have boobs like we do so I've been thinking what on earth could he be after by simulating a pair of boobs on himself and what's the attraction of the lacey panties if it isn't something sexual.

Well Granma said that what she thinks is it may be that a baby's first connection with another human being after birth is suckling on its' mothers breast adn that breast sustains the baby's life and she says that if I take notice of little toddler boys I'll see that even after weaning they still have an attraction to their mothers breasts and as they grow up they see womens breasts as one of the most identifying things about a woman and what she stands for and what a woman is. She says that a womans breasts are always outlined under her clothes and boobs are what are amongst the first things which identify someone as a female and she thinks that any man who has a stronger than normal female side will always want to identify with a bra and boobs because when he looks in the mirror he just doesn't want to see himself in a dress but he wants to see the outline of boobs too and that is important to him because boobs are highly significant with femaleness. And yes, she agrees with me that she believes that mostly, men who constantly wear womens clothes have an issue with more than just wearing the clothes because they simply feel comfortable, but she says most men will never admit it because it clashes with their maleness and the vision they want to project most of the time about what being a man is about and usually the fact they they cross over at times doesn't usually cause much harm.

And she's said what some of you have said that we have to deal with it and work through it if we're to survive as a family unit. She says that we have to make ourselves see that our father will never be the exact same in our eyes as we once knew him and we probably won't ever be able to trust him implicitly like we once did, but she says that we aren't the first family to hit rough waters and we won't be the last and she says that if we can get just 75% back of what we had as a family then that is way better than a lot of families have, but she says we all have to bend some and at least hang in there long enough for myself and my sister to grow up to where we are independant and just hope that in the meantime time will heal the wounds somewhat and then who knows what will happen for the better or worse as the case may be. She's like us, she's really p'd off with her son in law but she won't enter into it, she says families have to work through these things as only families can and she also stressed to me that she knows me well enough to know how open minded I usually am and I have to apply that open mindedness to the situation as if it's not my father standing there in that dress, it's one of my male friends and I have to try and divorce the clothing issue from the issues of lies and deception because they are two separate issues. Even if one did give birth to the other, she says that there are two issues which have to be overcome separately and if we keep trying to deal with them both as if they are one issue then we are doomed to failure because keeping the two issues locked together then one will only keep inflaming the other, and this seems like common sense to me even if I couldn't see it in the first place.

She says that what she sees as the most important issue I have to deal with is that he went against all that he taught us about families being true to each other and not telling lies to each other and how he taught us to do unto others etc and how he taught us that there are rules which have to be followed in life and if we break those rules then there are penalties and the biggy is that he taught us that if someone breaks your trust in them then the chances are that they'll break it again as that's how people are. I can remember as a little girl him standing in front of me after he caught me out in a lie and he said that if you do something wrong and tell lies about it then when you get caught out it'll be twice as bad as it wouldv'e been if you'd owned up in the first place and I heard that more than once over the years. Well I guess if nothing else then what he said has been proved right, only it's him in the hot seat this time. Gran says that if I cand eal with that issue then the clothing issue and what it means, may in the context of our family situation be a lot easier to handle, but we'll see.

Granma also said that what I'll find in life is that the amount of pain you feel is akin to the amount of love between two people and the more we love someone then the greater the pain we feel when that person lets us down and she says that sometimes we should try and make ourselves see that it's not the most important thing that the other person has done something to us and it hurts like crazy, but what is most important is to see that the level of hurt is so high because we love that person so much and if it didn't hurt much then it would be a sign that we didn't really love that person as much as we may have thought, and she says we have to use these positive thoughts to blow away the bad ones before we can hope to start and heal.

Well I've prattled on too long now and probably making people roll their eyes to the heavens but I just want to say to you Beauty....WOW.... are you real? is there really people like you about, I don't want to be seen as favouring one person to another because everythign everyone has said I've grabbed onto every word, but you're so cool and some of the things you said just blew me away. I don't know how many times I've read everything over but I keep seeing something new everytime I do. I just can't believe that so many people have taken the time to say what they have, I didn't expect the response.

And Lorna, gee you bring tears to my eyes with what you had to grow up with. I can't hope to know how bad it was for you as until the last 6 months I really can't remember an angry situation ever in our home. Have you ever thought that because of how your father was that it might have made you lean towards a softer female side or is that not possible.

And Missy, you make we want to bawl my eyes out and one day I will too but the time isn't right yet. Thank heavens for people like you in the world, your aura comes through in your writing. One thing which you said hit me and that is when you said, " My initial fear was that this activity was sick, and I wondered if the crossdressing might lead to something else that I didn't understand."
Well when I first walked into the house and saw my father in my mothers dress, after the initial shock I wanted to vomit. The first thing I saw was the dress and for a blink of an eye I thought it was Mum and I was about to say Hey Mum how's ya be, like I always do, then it hit me like a ton of bricks. It was like someone drove a red hot poker into my tummy and that poker is still there even though it doesn't burn quite as much, but a good day of bawling my eyes out is what I need, but just now that can't happen. You know, the first thoughts which run through my brain was that he was sick, that he'd flipped off his rocker and I had an instant vision of him in a straight jacket. What is funny is that of course I know that there are men who wear womens clothing and it's never bothered me before as I never thought about it much because it's never effected me and I never thought such a thing would enter my life on the grand scale it has. I suppose it's selfish of me to say that it's ok for other men but not my father, but somethigns we can't easily change in how we feel about some people or how we've thought about them or seen them all our life. I always looked at it as something other people did and as long as what people don't hurt anyone then so what, but gee, it sure feels different when it's in my own home and maybe I'm just not mature enough to deal with it, but I'm going to try and we're going to all get together again and see what happens, I'm not going to run away from it, well just not yet anyway. But I've told him I'm making no promises I can't keep and we'll see what the next few days brings.

I just want to add that you've all been a wonderful education to me lately and your courage and knowledge amazes me, there's some things I could say but just now I won't go into it until I see how the next week or so pans out.

Jennifer.

[DonnaT]

I surely hope your family discussion goes well Jennifer, and that at least some compromises can be ironed out.

Your grandma sounds pretty cool. My wife's grandma was the first and only person she talked to about my CDing, and her grandma was a big help to her. Her grandma has never thought any less of me for it either.

Note that there are several goups in Australia (all over the world in fact) for CDs and their SOs where the SOs get together and provide each other support. Many times the wife will feel lost because she has no one to talk to, and these groups give them someone to talk to. Just a thought for the future.

Good luck.

[Jessie]

Jennifer

I got to say I am learning a lot about my self from your post as well as those responding. I read each word and find it wonderful and scary at the same time. After your last post I am wondering if that shock is still with you as you said and you are yet to get over it to move on to what ever is next. Thanks for keeping us informed on how things are going so often it feels like someone posted one or two times and we do not hear from them again we do not know if what we say is helping. I am happy that some our post are.

Jessie

[JenniferMu.(GG)]

Things are not going so very good at home and I really can't see it getting any better.
It seems to be going the way now that since it's been out in the open with our family my father seems to be gathering, (how should I put it?) maybe 'strength' is the word which fits and he's trying to make it so we feel the guilty ones. Over the last few days we have done heaps of talking and some yelling together and with Mum but I'm getting the feeling that the more we talk about it the more things seem to swing his way and he dominates every discussion as he always has done, but that seems to go with the position of head of the family, or that's how we've been brought up to see it.

My mother doesn't have the will to match him and she told me last night that she did take him for better or worse and she thinks she'd rather see him happy as she can handle being unhappy better than he can and she feels that it's her duty to try and hold things together as much as she can even if it means going against what she believes her better judgement is telling her. And all that just makes me mad. He told me last night in a yelling fit that maybe it'd be better all round if I moved out as I'm the one stirring up the most trouble. I never thought I'd ever hear my father say that to me. But when Mum and I were talking together in the early hours of this morning she said it might be best if I left him and her together for a while to see if they can work things out better on their own. So I drove up to my Grans this morning and I'm moving in with her but I'm not leaving until the end of the month because my younger sister is 15 then and she can then legally leave home and he can't stop her coming with me and she says she's not staying if I go and I want her near me so she doesn't have to see what I think is going to happen once I go and when I go I'm gone for good too.

What is tearing me up is that how on earth can something like this split a family up which has been so close for all our lives. What I can't get is and maybe one day when I get older I might understand it more but if wearing womens clothes and dressing up to look like a woman is such a wonderful thing for men to do, then why the heck are so many so unhappy and so emotionally kicked with it all. I've read so much how on one hand people say how they feel so wonderful with it then on the other hand they're saying that they have all this anger and guilt and frustration and some people even suicide I've read. I'm so p'd off that something which no one seems able to give an axplanation as to why they do it then causes so much trouble. It's a bit like banging your head against a brick wall so you can feel the pain. I told my Mum last night that no way am I ever going to get married and bring kids into the world and take the chance that something like this secret he kept can suddenly come out and destroy everything we have as a family and I don't give a hoot what anyone says about what's fair and what isn't, this is just bloody well not fair and that applies to the five of us and I include my Gran too because even though she's putting on a brave face and shows little emotion I know she's chewing up inside seeing what's happening the same as we all are. She's not concerned about the clothes thing as much as she is about the lies. He created the family so maybe he feels he can smash it up as well who knows what he's thinking I sure don't.

I read so much about men saying they feel sexy when they have certain womens clothes on and my father says he isn't doing it for the sex side of things, but I'm not silly altogether, no way, I know a bit more than maybe he thinks I know and if it's a sex thing then to me that is terrible that a husband and father can see his family coming apart before his eyes and he doesn't do anything about it just because of a sex thing. He still sees me as a little girl but maybe I'm not an adult yet, but I'm past the little girl stage and the things which are set in my mind have been part of his teachings as I grew up too.
But I guess I'm just being seen as another person who is narrow minded and one of the reasons why men don't 'come out', I think the right term is. Well I suppose also that that a lot of people are saying I'm selfish too and my father says I need to grow up, but I sure have grown up a lot in the last six months but what I can't get my head around is that I've always known my father as one person and now him and others want me to suddenly change my thinking after 18 years and see him another way. Well that just isn't that easy and I don't care what he or anyone else says, he's now not the person he once was and as some people suggest, I just now know more about him, well I sure do and what I now know changes him as the person I always knew and loved. Now when I hug him and bury my head into him he doesn't even smell the same as he did, he used to smell a lovely man smell but now it's all diferent and these things aren't easy to come to terms with suddenly, well they aren't for me anyway.

Well I'm thankful for having the opportunity to rant here and I have learnt a lot reading through this site, although as it seems with anything like this I suppose there is a lot of ambiguous things said as I read these type of sites and that can be a bit confusing too and I know some will say that people are different with different views and that's something I'm trying to make allowancces for, but as I said to my father last night for the umpteenth time that if he'd been open with us all from the beginning I probably wouldn't have been freaking out this last six months as I am and even if he's an intelligent highly educated man, if I'd grown up with what he does then it'd maybe be an everytday thing to me. I think there are things he can learn about life he won't get from books and classrooms and he ought to learn something from this about all the trouble and heartache lies and secret lives can cause between people who are supposed to trust each other with their life. That's what I want to say.

Jennifer.

[Beauty]

Hi Jennifer,

It looks like you're, if I'm right, peaking. The frustration you're expressing is healthy. I noticed in this last post you answered a lot of your own questions (another good sign). From what I've seen from SO's after anger comes grieving and from there (over years) comes acceptance. Sometimes acceptance doesn't mean someone will stay together, but from what you've described it sounds good or as good as it gets right now. I don't think you'll be accepting this tomorrow or maybe even anytime soon, but your feelings and expressions have been right in line with someone who is coping with this rather well. Doesn't seem like it right now, I guess?

You're right about everything you said pretty much. The truth is when you're 18-19, 6 months is a lot more of your life than when you're a million years old like I am. Everything you're feeling is valid. I think your last conversation with your father was the best so far. Yelling or not, though not would be better I'm sure, you said to him "Look, if you'd just been honest I'd most likely not have been as upset." I'm sure those words sank in.

I'll admit I'm sad about you leaving the house, but it is best to let your emotions cool down. The things about words and actions that are made out of anger or confession is you really can't take them back. It seems your father has dug his feet into the sand and he's accepted or is starting to accept that he's this way.

I think you should trust your mom manage your sister's affairs. You've said it already. You are 19 years old. You don't yet have the wisdom to make the right decisions as much as someone older than you because of you're a new born adult right now. Your wisdom at your age, to me is still frightfully (in a good way) AMAZING! So, I hate doing this, but I'm taking a chance here that my assumption is correct.

If I'm right the issue here has never been with your mom. It's been with your dad and his lack of honesty. So please don't pull your sister away from your mom's care. Your father is a big, huge fibber who didn't think about the consequences he'd put his children and family through by being a selfish so and so. Please don't get in the way of your mom being a mom. If she wants to send your sister to your grandmother's then ok, but if it's you then you shouldn't try to be her parent.

Here's a crappy part about growing up. When you tell people things and you're hot/upset. They knod and act like they agree. They do this to help you out and let you vent. Then later you find out they were like, "Well you had a point, but so did the other person." So I'm sure your grandma is not happy in the least about this, but I do think she's going to get her arms around this whole CD'ing thing soon. She's going to most likely not ever going to forgive him, but I think she will accept him if your mom does. That's a wisdom that I'm still coming to grips with. Looking at my elders (ya' know like Saint Valentine and Socrates) and trusting their decisions were good ones. I'm still a very emotional person and I get very p'd when I hear about something wrong. Then I end up getting all emotional thinking everyone's with me. I do this because I go to people, "I'm not over-reacting right?" and they go, "Nooo way! You are soooo right." Then I go off and I say, "Well?" and they say things like, "I don't want to get involved.", "You were a bit mean.", "I agreed with you too a point, but you took it too far." and so I'm left out there alone. Just me and my feelings. Why this long diatribe? Well, because I can see that your mom and even your grand mother are starting to accept this now. It's not like they are accepting him, but they've started to let reality sink in. You aren't ready yet and that's ok too. It doesn't mean, as I said earlier, that anyone is going to change their minds tomorrow.

Going forward life is going to be a roller coaster for everyone. Right now your father doesn't feel the guilt. He's got a wall up to protect himself. That wall, just like your wall, will come down. When his wall comes down he'll see how fatigued his family is, he'll regret the lies and deception, but right now that's not going to happen. Especially with his daughter telling him everything he taught her to do right is being thrown back at him. Eventhough you and your mom taught you how to react to lies he's not hearing it that way. Right now his defense is you're a child and if you're adult enough to judge him then get out of his house. That's way uncool and he's not winning any brownie points in my book. You're a great kid, but right now he's just not in a place to hear it.

So, I'll change the topic for a sec. The sexual side of CD'ing. Your dad's not going to tell you there's a sexual side to his CD'ing. Talk about gross. Would you even want to know? ick!!! I doubt you're going to tell your dad the way you kissed your boyfriend or where he touched you and that's most likely the way he'd feel about telling you. So you can read here about those who have had the sexual episodes with CD'ing (including moi), but I doubt he's ever going to be honest with you about that. It's one thing I can understand about him. Which I'm not sure says a lot?

You're right about him not being the man you thought he was, but in life that's a good lesson. Finding out this way is more than horrible, but the lesson is a good one. I know this song I'm about to quote is really for women, but I took a lot from it because of my dealings with men as a teenager and watching the lies they'd tell to girls/women and themselves. The line is "A man can tell a thousand lies. I've learned my lesson well. Hope I live to tell the secret I have learned, 'till then It will burn inside of me." - Madonna

Life bites when it comes to getting honesty from people in general Jennifer. This lesson, though one of the most difficult one anyone can face, is not right, hell to live through, totally selfish of your father, and more bad things, (I can't believe I'm typing this) but it's good that you've learned it. If I had a time machine I'd go back and help your mom catch him after your sister was born so this could have come out much earlier, but even that would have interfered with your destiny.

You're a great person. A true future hero who's best years for the world are yet to come. In years, I'm telling you I guarantee this big fibber will be someone that you'll one day turn to for advice. It may not be how to be honest to your family, but it may be something else heavy. When you do want his advice I promise you'll go to him because you want to and because you'll trust him again. What I mean is this phase is going to pass. Believe it or not soon (not sure the timeline, but you won't be 80) you'll see what life is and go, "Oh.. so you wore women's clothes. What's the big deal, you're my dad." On the other hand maybe you'll also carry these thoughts too, "I can forgive you, but the pain you put me through I won't ever forget."

Unfortunately what I'm also saying is something will happen in your life that will impact you and cause you much more pain and anger than what your father did. That's shite news I know, but this is a pre-amble to life young one. How you deal with this is paramount to how you deal with things in the future.

You're thankful for having the opportunity to vent. I'm thankful you've visited us and have posted something so open and honest that you will help someone forever. You're a big breath of spring air to the forum. I hope the tumultuous times you've experienced when you come back here in years from now you look back on as one of your first real trials of your new found adulthood. You're a great gal and a great woman. Thank you so much for being here Jennifer. I mean it more than I think you'll ever know.

I wish you heaven!
Beauty

[JenniferMu.(GG)]

Gee Beauty, I've read your letter like a thousand times, and every time I see something I didn't before or it's maybe I see it different as to how it read last time and it's a bit spooky how some of the things you say are already looking different to me in my mind. Something my father has always said to us is that you can't go out to a store and buy experience you have to earn it the hard way and if we learn something from what we may first think is an unpleasant experience then ythat is how wisdom is formed. Well I'm starting to think that you are probably right and this has all been the first big test for me in life and I'm also starting to think that I haven't and am not handling it all that well or in the way which an adult would handle it and maybe I'm not as much an adult as I thought I was and maybe my father is right when he says I'm being a child.

What hurts a lot is that no one in our family has ever been this dishonest to the rest of us, I'm not saying we're all angels and never do anything wrong but nothing of this magnitude has been done by any of us to each other and I'm not talking just about the womens clothes I'm more talking about the hypocrasy of him drumming one thing into our heads and doing the opposite himself. I always looked at him and my Mum and I always thought to myself that I hope one day I find a man exactly the same as my father and you being a man you probably can't understand that now I'm sort of really frightened about trusting what anyone says, especially my Dad. I always thought he knew everything in life and everything he said was right, but now, well how can I think that again.

Maybe I've given the wrong impression about my Gran but she isn't upset at him wearing womens clothes, it's all the other stuff and how it's upset our family and torn us up. I've had long talks with Gran and even though I knew about things like gays and lesbians and that sort of stuff Gran has told me lots of other things about people and she says that we have to learn to accpet other people for what they are because a lot of people are born not exactly to the template was how she put it and as I go through life she says I'll find that a lot of people which the crowd don't accept will probably turn out to be some of the best people I'll ever meet. She says that for me to move forward with my life I have to look past what my father does and although I don't have to necessarily forgive him for the way he was dishonest and decived my Mum and us we do have put it to the back of our mind and put our family back together and if we can all do this then we will have passed one of the biggest tests that we as a family will ever have put upon us and she says that hopefully in time we will all be a stronger unit for the experience and she wants me to go back home after the holidays as she says you can't mend cracks from a distance. And like you she said last night that my sister can come with me if she wants to but she doesn't want me influencing her as she knows my sister would jump off a bridge if I told her too so I'm going to have lunch with Mum tomorrow and talk over a lot of things as maybe it's all looking a bit different now and Gran said things had to blow up big time before we could start to put it all back together and maybe she's right as she usually is.

I'd also just like to say that I thought when I first came here that maybe it'd be a bit like a 'boys club' and some of the things which some people said stung a bit and I showed it all to Gran and she said that sometimes it's not what people say it's why they say what they have and what they are trying to show you by saying what they have, if that makes sense and she says I'm learning about a different world and if we don't get different perspectives then how can we make judgements or form opinions if we don't get all the different aspects about it all and if we only hear what we want to hear then we'll just go on as before and we gain nothing, so I guess it was probably the right thing in coming here and I really have my best friend to thank as she pushed me into writing on here first, I guess with what happened to her in her life she's a bit more grown up than me. And yes, I have never had an issue with my MUm, my Mum means more to me than anyone else in the world and we've never had a cross word together and it's torn my heart out to see how she's been with all this and that's one reason why I detested my father but maybe things might get a bit better.

Thanx for all your wisdom.

Jennifer.

[Beauty]

Hi Jeniffer,

Wow. Each time I read anything from you I think I'm reading from someone twice your age. You are just so amazing. I'm shaking my head in disbelief in your wisdom, your mannerisms, your politness, your ability to listen, and the uncanny ability you have to mirror back what people like your grandmother have said. You are also so incredibly humble. You are truly a prize to this planet.

Your grandmother is who I aspire to be like in life. She is among the wisest people I've ever read about and for me that's rare. You've done such a great job of conveying her thoughts too. I haven't ever disagreed with anything she's said (another rarity) . You didn't really ever misstate her feelings. It was bad communication on my part if I said something that led you to believe otherwise and I apologize for that. Everything she has told you proves she's a very wise woman. She's raised a great daughter and an absolutely smashing grand daughter. If I were your sister I'd jump off the bridge too. I could only say "Amen" and "I wish I'd thought of that" When she said, "You can't mend cracks from a distance." Your grandmother is the rarest of human gems and her wisdom is truly awe inspiring. She's a great thinker, a kind hearted woman, and very strong. She's officially a new role model for me. We all start off as coal, she's living proof that we can become diamonds.

I can appreciate your friend telling you to come here was a push. In life we all need friends like her. Please make a note "She's a keeper!" I'm sure your friend would most likely agree that all the things you've said and the way you've communicated were even inspiring to her. I doubt she'd say she's more of an adult than you are, because you my good lady are far ahead of me when I was your age. If you keep this up your grandmother may be asking you for advice in a few years. I'm kidding!!! All I mean to say is your are great, fair and more adult than a great deal of adults I know.

You're right I can't understand wanting to grow up and marry a guy like my dad. I did think the world of my dad until I was about your age though. My brother even told me once I needed to stop being so harsh on him. Luckily when he told me this I responded with, "Actually I'm quite done." He raised me to be honest and I wasn't going to waive that right just because I needed to be honest with him. I digress from my original sentence though which is, you're right I don't understand what it's like to want to marry someone like dad. Barring this one rather huge fib though, your father doesn't look like he's done too many other bad things. He may have, but only life will tell that and if I'm honest I have to tell you I think this was it, as far as bad stuff. Like you mentioned life has a lot more in store for you and this was a great intro to life.

I do hope you remember that quote from the song in my previous post. Hold on to it with all of your might. Please don't ever be thrown to far by the dishonesty of others. Please never let it destroy your spirit and it will try to, believe me. Just hold on to those words from that song, especially when it comes to men. Sorry if it's wrong to give you that advice because I wasn't born a gal, but I think it's imperative that young women take those words into their young lives and remember it when men do the things they do. When I give this advice part of the lyrics come to life for me because finding out the things men can say in the name of love have affected me. So giving this advice bring to life this part of the quote, "Hope I live to tell the secret I have learned. 'Til then it will burn inside of me" Sharing this with you has helped the burning fire to ease back a bit. Thank you so much.

It's so refreshing to hear how much respect you have for your mom. She's got a great mother too, so I can understand your respect for her and your natural desire to protect her. You're a great child for doing that. Hey.. don't make me tear up here. I'm not a cryer.

I don't like saying goodbye really and I can tell what you've needed has almost come to a close. Perhaps that explains the tears I'm fighting back. I just want to thank you again for coming here. Your wisdom and raw emotions that were so respectfully worded and so very clear are going to help so many people who seek the same aid your did. A huge majority of the people who have the same questions and issues you have aren't ever going to post here, but can now read your words and get comfort and guidance from the great example you've shown. I'm personally eternally grateful to you for more than that though because you've touched my heart and shown me there are still great people out there who are willing to learn and are wise beyond this earth's understanding. (ok.. i couldn't not tear up there) Lastly, I think there are fathers who will read your posts and perhaps change their thinking. OMG! What a hero you are in so many ways for that alone.

Thank you so much Jennifer. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Beauty

[DonnaT]

She says that for me to move forward with my life I have to look past what my father does and although I don't have to necessarily forgive him for the way he was dishonest and decived my Mum and us

I said before that your granmother was cool. She also has great wisdom. I wanted to respond yesterday to say something like your grandmother said, and I'm glad you heard it from her first.

Basically, what is done is done, and continually rehashing his dishonesty will not change the past. It only provides a point of attack in an argument, and arguments are not helpful in solving the 'current' issues for discussion now on the table.

[JenniferMu.(GG)]

As Beauty says, the time has come for me to leave here. You people have filled the gap for me with all you've said, both the men and women here have opened doors for me more than you'll think and although I absolutely have no idea where all this will go or end there is light at the end of the tunnel now more than there was a few weeks ago. I'd like to be able to wave a wand and fix it all for everyone of us or even just make it magically possible for us all to be happy as we were, especially my father as he's hurting maybe more than any of us but dreaming doesn't solve anything. I know part of all the trouble is my fault because I say what I think but then so does my father and my Mum always says the two of us are an irresistible force meeting an immovable object and we've always been like that and always will no matter how much we love each other.

I want to say a parting thank you from my heart to all you people who took the time to tell me things and give me your opinions and advice and I'll always know that you were telling me with the best intentions, you're real cool people and although I know that whatever happens in the future I'll never be able to grasp it all as you people do as I'm not the way you are but I have no animosity towards anyone and I hope what you do does make you a happy person and I hope your families handle it better than ours have so far because it's damn heartbreaking when something tears you up like this has.

Beauty, (that's a lovely name and you are a sweet person) I want to say thank you for all the time you put into telling me all the things you have, I know you would have better things to do. I don't know how old you are and I don't want to seem rude but you have all the wisdom my Gran does and she says it took her nearly 60 years to gather it all up and I expect to get it all in a third of that time and I need to slow down. I heed your advice about my studies, you've said about the same as Gran and Mum have and I really do have to bury my head back in the books as I have to get my Bachelors degree before I can enter the Hyatt management training program and my biggest goal in life is to one day manage a Hyatt Hotel where ever that may be. It won't be a problem getting the degree as long as my head is right and that's what I'm working on now and you people have done a lot to helping me there. So, I'm taking time out from all this family stuff as I just feel exhausted with it all now and I'm getting back to some of the things which were important in my life before all this happened, like I'm an avid long distance runner and I've missed all the interaction at the club and running relaxes me and also debating has always been a love of mine and I've made contact again with my club and intend to travel round with them debating again when I can. I love classical music too and I love ballet. These are the things I need in my life and I just want to be able to put my life back together something like it was before all this although I know it'll never be exactly the same as it was and the scarey part is not knowing if in the future how much or how little it'll be like it was before. Gran says that I'll be a better person for all this and one day I'll come to realise it even if I can't see it now.

I'll leave you in peace now and I wish you all, all the good things in life you wish for.

Jennifer.

[Mrs. Missy(SO)]

Dear Jennifer:

Before you go, I would like to leave you with a few more thoughts.

There are so many similarities with what is happening to you and what happened to me and my sister when we were your age. The things that helped me the most were time, growing older and wiser in becoming a parent, and having positive influences in my life.

I grew up feeling that life was unfair to our family. I looked around at all the happy families, and never realized that there were families out there who were hurting too. I now realize that even among my close friends, so many of them have "skeletons in the closet" either in their childhoods or now as adults.

You may have heard of the five stages of grief -- denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I believe you can use these stages, especially when a traumatic event occurs in your life. I experienced all of these stages, and am now at a point of deeply loving my parents and accepting them as they are.

We are all human -- we all make mistakes. Parents often say "Children don't come with instructions". My Mom and Dad tried to raise us the best way they knew how.

For many years I felt anger toward my Dad because he shielded my sister and me from the truth about a situation. I distanced myself from my parents for many years. During that time, I was fortunate to develop wonderful friendships with people who helped to gently steer me back to my parents. The one person who helped me above all else was my husband who, with his amazing insight and understanding, patiently guided me through the grief process and helped me see my parents for the loving Mom and Dad that they are. I will forever be grateful to him for the wonderful gift he gave me -- being reunited with my parents.

Through the process of listening and carefully evaluating those who were positive and influential in my life, and through gaining wisdom and understanding as an adult and parent, I now realize that my Dad's decisions were made out of love and concern for us as young children. I love my parents today more than ever.

I know that you're unhappy that your Dad kept this from you but, as a parent, I now realize that there are many things that you can't tell young children because they may not understand. Sometimes it's a tough call, but you hope and pray that you are doing the best thing. Sometimes things work out well, and sometimes they don't, but that's the risk you take when you raise children. I think your Dad did the right thing, and I think you will see that too when you have children

Jennifer, your grandmother sounds like a wonderful woman, and a true source of strength, love and knowledge for you. I'm so glad you have someone like this in your life right now.

Take the time you need to listen and learn from her. If you are a spiritual person, say your prayers to the One Above who hears us all. I'm one who believes that things happen for a reason, and sometimes it takes years before we may see that reason.

Jennifer, you and your family continue to be in my prayers.

"May The Force be with you."

Hugs,


Mrs. Missy(SO)

[JenniferMu.(GG)]

Dear Missy,

I just couldn't let go what you've said without a reply. Although I intended to keep reading this site as it has so much information in it I didn't mean to keep making a nuisance of myself, but what you've written is so beautiful and I can feel it coming from your heart with love, you must be a very loving caring kind person and I want you to know that you've touched me very tenderly with what you've said.

No, I've never heard of those 5 steps of grief. The only real grief I can ever remember in my life was when my dog was killed by a car and I felt like my best friend was taken from me for so long. I do feel a sort of grief every year when Gran is so sad on the day her husband was killed in the Vietnam war, but I never met him and my sadness is really for her. I suppose what we've been going through this last 6 months is some form of grief but I'm not sure what it would be really called other than anger and frustration and a feeling of helplessness at seeing my Mum so sad. This afternoon I showed my Gran what you said and she said that she agrees entirely with what you're saying and there's a lot of things she hasn't said to me because she feels I will be better for the experience as the best way to learn is being in amongst it and working through it and by someone telling you then it doesn't have the same effect or we don't take as much notice of what others say as maybe we should.

As far as your 5 steps of grief I have to say that it seems I'm still at the anger stage and maybe bordering on the bargaining. But what have I to bargain about? What worries me is the depression stage you mention, I sure don't want to go into a depressive state at this stage of the year or at all ever, as the rest of the year is so important to my future and my intended career. Maybe those 5 steps aren't set in stone as they say, or are they?

My Dad did say to me last weekend that it was unfortunate that we suddenly came upon him as we did and that he intended for us to never know but in a way he's glad it's now out in the open. He said that he intended to tell Mum when Sis and I had left home and then together they'd work out if we ever needed to know and he said that us finding out when we did was probably at the worst time in our lives to find out with all the stuff going on at this time and he said what you said, that as a parent and husband he had to make decisions years ago and whether they were the right ones he could only guess at that time but he says they were made at the time for what he saw as the right reasons with the idea of not causing any heartache and it was never his intention for it to come out the way it did as it was such a shock us seeing him in that instant.

I am able to say that each day I can now feel a different feeling inside me even if I can't define exactly how it is and hopefully we can all find the right way and the right things to say so it'll make it better. Just reading what you've written has made me feel different in a better way than before I read it. Gran said that we had to go through the yelling at each other stage and get it off our chest or we would just go on storing it all up inside us and she's right, I don't feel I can raise my voice any more and hopefully he won't either. As I said before, you people here have been so much help to me and I feel as if I was guided to this site by an unseen hand for reasons I wasn't aware of on the start.

Thanks again for being the sweet lovely guiding wise person you are, you've had more effect on me than mere words can say.

Jennifer.

[Suzy(SO)]

Hi

Can`t really help you but know how your mom feels.It is going to a year soon and everything is still hanging in the air.Guess my son is lucky that doesn`t know about this,at least I think so.You have every right for your feelings,the same goes for your mom and sister.
A family shouldn`t be based on lies this way.Hurts when you find it out a feeling that I know just too well.Don`t have a answer on how to fix it since I am still looking for that myself.People have choices that is so true,which means CD`er make the choice not to tell the future wife.In the end the kids will suffer too along with the wife.Hope things will work out for your mom and the both of you,whatever will happen between your parents.