Getting "read"

[Virginia]

After reading the threads about grocery shopping and some statements about being "read," I would like to raise some questions.
Assuming that we go out, and we make a "valid" attempt to pass here are some questions I have.
1. What if someone approaches you and asks something like,"are you a guy?" 2. Do you have different responses if it is a man or a woman? 3. Does your response depend on where you are, i.e., grocery store, department store, restaurant, bar, mall??? Again, assuming that we make a valid attempt to "pass" and we are still read, what are some of the major reasons? Like, the walk, the voice, poor make-up, over or underdressed. I think that women are more likely to read us than men, but that is evidently an attitude more so than physical appearance, right?
Any additional comments and soultions should help all of us.
Thanks, and love,
Deborah

[Beauty]

Hi Deborah,

Great topic!!!

I imagine I'd just roll my eyes and try to walk away if I was asked that.

Beauty

[Jadeanne]

Hi Deborah and Beauty,

Jadeanne is just a homebody, but when I am out, always in my male mode, I would not be impolite enough to approach anyone and ask them anything like that.

In the near past I have twice thought I read a T-girl.

Once was in a dollar store was a very large person in long dress, makeup, and what looked like a wig but had a very masculine face and beard shadow that bordered on to stubble. They were standing in the middle of the aisle looking at the merchandise on the shelf. I simply said "excuse me" and they let me by. A little later on another lady from a couple of aisles over was calling over to the person I had passed by earlier. The response was in a rather low pitched sore-throat tone. I just kept on with my shopping and didn't do any further interaction with either of them. Since this was during a really cold Buffalo NY winter, I thought that possibly this was the warmest clothing they could come up with - anyway I felt that it wasn't my business anyway.

The second time was in a thrift store and I was with my wife. I was carrying a dress which I selected and we headed to look at the jewelry by the front checkout. A person shopping was already there and I waited for them to finish looking so we could look. When they turned away to leave the counter we were face to face for a moment and I saw a face with heavy beard shadow. neither of us said anything. I paid for my things soon after, but the person looked back toward me several times from a distance. After we got to the car, my wife mentioned that she thought there was something about that person.

Theses are my experiences from the "other side"

Jadeanne

[Yvonne]

Hi

Passing and getting read are something I have an issue with, and I agree with Beauty and Jade that for someone to come up to me and ask if I am a guy is the height of rudeness. It's never happened to me and I would ignore someone who was that rude.

My advice is: forget about passing. It never happens. No one can say they passed because thay can't read the minds of every person who sees you or comes in contact with you. Just because someone doesn't let their jaw drop or ask you if you are a guy or yell out "hey mister" doesn't mean they were fooled into thinking we are women.

I suppose it all depends on your definition of "passing." Mine is this: I go out dressed and looking the way I want, do the things I want and get treated with the same basic respect and curteousy as anyone else who looks, dresses and acts the way I do. If anyone can't do that, it is their problem and not mine.

If you are planning to go out in public crossdressed, be prepared to have people recognize you for a crossdresser. The rest are too wrapped up in their own afairs to even notice us, which is fine with me. I think crossdressing is slowly seeping into public awareness, and most people are OK with it.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

Regards
Yvonne

[Beauty]

Hi Yvonne,

You hit on a real important topic for me. Being read and telling you have been or not.

I've read, on numerous boards, about people passing, but the truth is you're right Yvonne. You can't read people's minds. So if you think you are passing then good, that's healthy. Since we can't read the minds of people though, the bottom line is just enjoy the outing. If no one messes with you then I call that passing anyway.

Even someone saying, "Yes ma'am" isn't a for sure you haven't been read. That person could be polite.

Jadeanne's example of when she ran into someone and looked them right in the face, but said nothing made me think I was going to read a post from someone one day that describes this event, except they'd say it like this, "I ran into someone in the store. He looked me square in the eyes and never noticed I was a man."

I don't think it's healthy for us to obsess about it or gauge our completeness by it, even for those who don't have 5 o'clock shadow. Those people might never go out because they feel they would be read. Bottom line is, don't worry about passing. Worry more about putting yourself in a SAFE environment and being careful out there.

I suggest everone follow Yvonne's suggestions and they'll be fine. Anything more is obsessive.
soap

Beauty

[Kersten Lee]

Two weeks ago I went out the first time since my first daylight trip during
Christmas holiday. It went wonderful and felt wonderful. I agree with what
has been said. I used to think that if I worked hard enough and practiced
that I could always pass. There are a lot of 200 lb. 6 ft. tall woman out
here. They don't all have fine features.

I went out in my town last sat evening. I went to a discount card shop.
Everyone either ignored me or was kind. One woman commented to me they have a great Easter collection, and smiled. I replied that some are
very nice. I felt very happy and confident, because of this exchange.
I tried shoes on in an empty Payless and both woman were ok and very
polite to me. I didn't buy anything and one said to come back in a friendly
tone. I went to a fast food, that I had went to once before last fall. It was
the same young girl. She was a bit nervous last time and this time was
friendly and quite polite. Maybe she was only having a off day last fall.
I went to a discount store and bought some on sale lace panties and some
cotton, pretty butterfly and tiny flower print, panties. I also got some make-up and everyone was kind or ignored me. The younger girl at the
checkout smiled alot and made small talk about being tired and was ready
to go home. I talked and she never flinched. My voice isn't good.
I went to a video store and browsed and was asked kindly if I needed
help, twice by a man and once by a woman. I bought the Fifth Element
previewed and again at checkout the woman treated me more nicely
than average in male mode. I never felt anyone laughed at me. I came
in contact with all ages. It was so life affirming.
I didn't fool myself into thinking that everyone believed I was a woman
though.

This week I went out and it wasn't so good. I got to go and will write later.

Kersten

[Lorna]

Hi Deborah,

1. To answer your first question, I would simply make a face and walk away from that person. That would be an extremely rude thing for them to ask, whether their instincts were true or not.

I tend to get read as soon as I open my mouth...

I also think that your location depends on your likelihood of being read. I tend to get read more often in Manhattan than on Long Island. I think the reason is because in the city, folks are more used to seeing crossdressers and drag queens, and are able to make a better distinction, as opposed to areas on Ling Island, where you would not expect to see a Tgirl or drag queen at all.

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Deborah.

Assuming that I would be capable of making a "valid" attempt to pass, I would probably respond by asking that person the question:

If I was, what particular interest would that be to you?

[Beauty]

Hi Kersten,

Thank you for taking us through your day there. That was a very interesting trip. You did lots of stuff.

I'm sorry the second trip didn't go so well though. I'll wait to read what happened.

I think it's great that the venture out you described was so positive and that you were attentive to reactions. I think that kind of thing is important so you can keep yourself out of danger.

Thanks again!
Beauty

[Kersten Lee]

Hi,

Finishing the last story, I also went to a grocery and had no negative
experence. Telling my therapist about how nice it was to be myself and
actually be and feel myself, she said I pobably don't fool everyone I
meet. She said as comfortable and adventurous I have become she
worried what would happen if someone was quite rude and or mean and
outed me publicly calling me bad names. I told her I didn't know but was
starting to believe that I could handle it. She warned me again to be safe
and to watch the situations I'm in, like a woman, and be careful.

I went out again Sat evening and stores were more crouded than usual,
maybe do to daylight savings time. For some reason I wasn't as
comfortable and pulled together as the last week and at Christmas.
I was stupid enough to go in our big mall the first time. I wasn't real
happy but thought I could work through it and come in to my female
personna. Right off, some people were looking at me. I feel my projection
wasn't good. I kept going. I also wasn't real happy with the longer
skirt and sweater and shoe combination. I went to Payless and tried
a couple pairs. One sandle I liked wasn't there in a 12 normal. A girl
came and asked. When I replied my nerves were shot and I croaked.
She really was taken back. The only bad time in a Payless in male
or female mode in 8 months. She did look the shoe up and told me where
it was available even though she was quite uncomfortable as was I.

I went to a womans shop and tried on several jackets because I need one
for spring. I still didn't feel right. I walked down the mall and down a
hall with no store openings and a couple sitting areas. There were
a half a dozen young teen girls. After I passed, one girl hollered, that's
a man, and they all laughed and giggled. I shopped at the opening of
Penny's a bit as they watched and giggled. I went on to shop and
chickened out on passing back through. I walked all the way around the
the outside of the mall to get back to my car. It was probably half
a mile, because I had entered across the other side.

I have read this could happen for a year on the net. I didn't panic even
though I took the easy way out. My therapist might be right. I don't
know if I could handle it with confidence if someone did question my
gender or worse. I'm at a crossroad. I know for sure that I won't
go out again unless I feel my attitude is intact completely. Will I
feel that good and confident again. I don't know.

Sorry for all this when it was a simple question at the beginning of
this tread.

?Kersten?

[Beauty]

Hi again Kersten,

It may not have been what the original post was about, but it's very relevant.

Wow.. that was a powerful read. I'm glad you have decided to get yourself composed before your next outing.

I can't imagine how you felt when that girl screamed that. The things I think about people when they are that rude. Kharma has her name and it will come 10 times worse for her than what you felt. Hopefully she'll know why it happened.
The voice breaking and the comfort level of the salesperson made me feel for you too.

If you could do that last outing again, what would you do differently?

Beauty

[Virginia]

Wow! Going back into this blonde's brain file, if memory serves, it seems that on several occasions teen girls have been the instrument of "being read." Is it that they are more fashion conscious? NO WAY! Are they just more observant? = That's a possibility. They are probably looking for a role model in adult females and really scrutinize "older" females and as has been said we are more attitude than appearance thus I guess we are more easily "outed" especially by unruly, uncooth, ignorant. loud and dare I say uneducated teenage females. However, in their defense they have not been educated about CD'ers, but then flip the coin and you get the fact that our society no longer expects civil attitudes/respect for others under vitually any conditions by our "children."
Personally I would stay away from malls except during school hours and definitely stay away on week-ends. I know that when I went to an evening movie and it was wall to wall people and now that I think about it a lot of teenagers (even with a cop opening the theater door for me and calling me "honey.") I was still a bit concerned, but fortunately had no problem. from Hill Street Blues: "Be careful out there!"
Love,
Deborah

[Yvonne]

Hi Kersten

For what it's worth, I know just how you felt that second time out when things didn't seem to be working. I learned something from a friend many years ago about being read in public. At that time, if some teeage kid had yelled out, or even said softly, 'that's a man,' it would have been enough to send me home. Now I turn, make eye contact and smile and broadly and as effervecently as I can.

Your story also brings up another good point about going out: how we dress. The 'conventional wisdom' is: dress down, blend in, dress like other women. I tried that...once. I hated it. I know what I like to wear, I know what looks good on me, and I know what makes me *feel* attractive. That's what I wear when I go out. And if I'm not dressed like all the other women around me, well guess who's problem that is.

Ultimately, the most important thing to having a nice time out is to let other people see how OK you are with yourself and they will react to that and be OK with you to.

Thanx for sharing that story.

Yvonne

[Virginia]

Alright!!!! Yvonne!!
A girl after my own heart!!! I like my mini's and heels and that is what I usually wear! If I don't blend in so be it. I think most of our sisters will agree that the current dress code by most GG's today - for lack of a better word - SUCKS! It is as if the entire gender has been struck with some kind of sloppiness disease. I guess that I am from the "old school" but given the chance I would NOT be caught dead outside anywhere in rollers and for that matter, dressed like 90% of the GG's I see out in public. I don't think they are dressing "trendy" just sloppy and lazy! I hate to say it but if women's lib has any negatives, appearance is one of them. GG's have taken on the attitude of "if you don't sign my paycheck - screw you!" I am still pondering what possessed the older lady at the movie I was leaving to call me a "slut." I was conservatively dressed, but I look nicer than any of the other GG's there. I had on a knee length, tight, gray skirt, and a nice red, long sleeve silk blouse. I still think it was the blonde hair. Anyway, at least you and I will do our thing.
Love ya,
Deborah

[Beauty]

Hi Yvonne and Deborah,

I think it's cool to dress anyway you like, but I think you should also dress your age. Christa Miller is a good example. She was in her 30's on the abc sitcom d. carey. She wore outfits that were very sexy, but she also wore appropriate outfits for the appropriate occassion.

http://members.aol.com/paulwetor/cmiller.jpg

Wearing 4-5" heels isn't practical when going to the mall, but a mini skirt would be cool.

I don't disagree with you about self expression, but I also don't think we shouldn't forget we also have a certain level of responsibility to not make women, TS' or other trangsgendered folks look like we're just dressing for sexual reasons either. In private, that is a whole different story.

I don't really want to get anyone upset or anything, but I feel that if what you're saying is go with stilleto heels and a short dress to go shopping where there are going to be children I disagree.

If that's not what you're saying, could you please help me understand?

Beauty