Why do we believe our gender is fully or partially Feminine

[Dolores(GG)]

I appreciate the apology. I cannot say that the last post did not bother me a bit. No, we don't know who we are talking to- but just because we have anonymity and the chance to speak our minds openly does not mean we can take a line, in one post, to essentially accuse them of something terrible. I don't want to be weary of what I write. I like to assume this is a good community and I interact with others under that filter.

Once again, I am glad we misunderstood each other.

[Anthony Simon]

I'm the one who brought up "consensual", so perhaps I should respond. I really meant it in the context of "magic", which in a lot of the contexts you see it (i.e. myths, fairy tales etc.) is an action of one powerful being on someone far less powerful - i.e. turning them into a frog or something. In the Cinderella example of course it's consensual in that Cinderella gets what she wants out of it (and is turned into something beautiful rather than ugly).

I suppose the subtext was it's really good to get "good" magic rather than "bad" and thus does lead, at least with me, to the "bad" variant in the real world. So then we go to my stuff...I know in my first post here, I desribed how my grandmother put me in a nightgown after I'd wet the bed when I was 4. I took that as her dressing me up as a girl and have been in conflict, to a greater or less extent, ever since. See, for me, that's "bad" magic...

I think that probably does qualify as child abuse (apparently she had a "creepy" track record). But I don't think adults putting (male) children in girl's clothes necessarily does. When I was 9, I played Titania in a school play and I could have said "no" if I wanted. That's consensual in my book.

What kids do with each other can be cruel, can be kind, but it isn't abuse, it's kids (well there may be exceptions. I think someone here may be one, with a particular horror story). If you're an adult with another adult it's a whole diferent ball game...A very deep pool....

[Anthony Simon]

Whats the point of all this? Being bi for what feels my whole life, I can say I don't think I was born this way nor did I feel it was a choice. It is something that became. Why do we want to argue that it's genetic? I think it is fear or shame. We want to justify to others that we are powerless against it. Damn that. I am proud of who I am and how I have lived. I enjoy it and embrace it. I wont apologize by trying to compartmentalizing it. I like women and I like boys that look like women and I don't try to pick out the roots one by one to try to validate it because I don't think the true answer is available to us.

I think "It is something that became" is such a great statement. I think the whole contingent thing is so vitally important. I mean surely that's what life is, trying to make something out of what you've been given and what you've got. And, if it works, it's a kind of Grace (not to get too religious, which I'm not).

[Absaroka]

Reading the last few posts I was wondering if an issue of semantics was involved. Dolores wrote "dressing up boys". I assumed she meant dressing up males who were close in age to whatever age she was at the time, and that at this point in her life she enjoys dressing up men. Sort of like how my wife, in her 50's, refers to her female friends as her girlfriends. However crossdressing being the subject that it is, other conclusions were considered possible as well.

WRT Anthonys comments about magic, I remembered comments from some of my friends who experimented with these things. There were two common themes. One is that there is no such thing as something for nothing. If you cast a spell or perform a ritual to help someone, the resulting misfortune that was averted will be visited elsewhere. The other was that human nature being what it is, that if one does enough white magic sooner or later the temptation to do black magic will become too strong.

These were not things I participated in. I only know what I was told, but the people who had experienced these things seemed to take this very seriously. However I think what Anthony was saying was that crossdressing presents the illusion of magic, not actual magic itself.

It's also very true that the idea of being transformed into something or someone else is pretty much a universal human theme. It is certainly a part of what crossdressing means to me at this point. There are lots of other transformation themes. The one to animal is extremely common. The werewof legend (native Americans transformed to Grizzly bears, Asians to tigers, Polynesians to sharks, and so on) is a great example. I've read sci fi of were people-wolves that only become human during the full moon.

All of which leads us to a question. If one of us was a werewolf, would we want to transform into a male or female wolf?

Zari

[Absaroka]

The idea of crossdressing as an addiction gets brought up here from time to time. Addiction is different from need. For example we are not addicted to breathing. We all need to eat, but some eat (or starve themselves) in a way that is addictive.

The difference between eating and the addiction of an eating disorder is that addiction is an enemy of life. So if someone feels they are addicted to crossdressing, they need to ask is my crossdressing an enemy of my life, and am I powerless to resist this enemy. Which of course is not at all like the irresistable urge to breathe after being underwater for a while.

Zari

[Anne Bonny]

I have no experience with "magic" as some kind of game. I am kind of rattled and messed up by my wife's deteriorating mental state we are nearing the edge.... Again I am sorry for the offence I make mistakes interpreting things from time to time, it is not always easy to correctly interpret where someone is coming from from written words alone. Oh, and I acknowledge some laziness on my part at times reading carefully, considering, or.. reacting which makes for error on my part. I will leave it at that.

Addiction? It is a possibility there is a substance involved, and a pleasurable effect which dissapates and leads one to want to repeat the action again and again and again. Like the rats who forego food and repeatedly push the button to stimulate the pleasure center in their brain to the point of starvation. There is such a thing as sexual addiction, some people who do certain things are incorrigible, and society has to lock them behind bars. One of the legitimate reasons why Government exists is to protect citizens from harm. Elements of addiction are there. Who knows?

[Anthony Simon]

I think what Anthony was saying was that crossdressing presents the illusion of magic, not actual magic itself.

It's also very true that the idea of being transformed into something or someone else is pretty much a universal human theme.

Well, for me, it's somewhere between the illusion of magic and the real thing, in that there really is some woman and that pops out when I dress up - but also that I'm not "really" a woman, in that there's a hell of a lot of man in me as well. So you get this secret, sacred space where stuff happens and I'm not entirely sure what. Looking in the mirror, I am definitely amazed at what I see - and, in those simple terms, it is magic. I mean it is a transformation (even if not entirely real).

And Dolores wrote:

As Anthony said, Cinderella can go to the ball. The ability to change and present an idealized persona is a powerful and universal theme. It doesn't have to be an addiction, it is simply human nature and we all find ways of expressing that desire. You see cute little shy girls walking around on Halloween in slutty angel costumes. It's a thrill, it's socially sanctioned suddenly to do and act like you want. I have read many posts on here that say "When I am dressed, I am calmer, more patient...that transfers over to when I am not." Your femme persona is an outlet. We all have those outlets. It neither values or devalues it, it simply is. If anything, I am sure it makes it stronger. The fact that I do not see my partner dressed often, makes the obsession even stronger.

A very common variant on this outlet is going to the movies (which would be a subset of getting involved with any sort of narrative) There we identify vicariously with a whole galaxy of different individuals, male, female etc., etc. and never quite need to nail down or be sure what bit of the movie or what characters are moving us the most. I mean we can all be the characters played by John Wayne or Clint Eastwood or Jane Fonda or Sigourney Weaver. To me dressing up is, in a way, a supercharged version of that. But when you're dressing up as woman, you have to own that you're doing it. If you're identifying (as a man) with a woman in a movie, then there are all sorts of mechanisms that enable you to avoid drawing any sort of transgender conclusions from it.

I'm just wondering if part of the buzz you have from dressing up your partner is from the legitimated power it gives you. I mean he's saying look I put myself in your hands and trust you with this transformation. It does sound an amazing thing.

.....

Anne: If the problems with your wife are really getting to you, perhaps you could start a thread (?in off-topics) and talk about it. But I know it might be hard.

[Anne Bonny]

Thanks Anthony, I am not thinking too clearly, I have even changed to male mode, except stopped at nail polish remover for my toe nails. I probably need to find a support site. When I am distressed or depressed I lose my desire to dress. I have substantially lost the person I married and am alone but facing an enormous challenge daily. She talks to phantom people all day and sometimes the voices presuade her that I am bad for some reason - It is the disease process - but this is absolutely not the place to discuss it. I need to find a support site.

[Absaroka]

Anne I'm like you. When I'm depressed or unhappy I lose the urge to dress.

I saw my father in law die of ALS and my mother slowly deteriorate. It's a terrible thing to have to watch and my heart goes out to you.

By all means find a support group. This is not something you will be able to cope with alone. And make it a f2f group, you need more than the internet has to offer.

Hang in there.

Zari

[Anne Bonny]

OK, I'm back I did connect with an online support group. I have had no desire to dress the past few days.

[Anthony Simon]

I seem to be responding to Dolores in bits, but still...

Personally, if I really think about it, saying we are half woman or half man is silly. And I say it, I feel more masculine than femme- however I think we believe that or speak that way precisely because we are working from within the framework of a society that expects femme to be weak and demure and male to be aggressive, go getting! I consider myself more aggressive, so I tend to relate to men, but really there is no reason to. Should I accept that I am simply an aggressive female- or even more importantly- I am just a aggressive person. Period. Why is gender a part of that at all?

Well, the thing about "an aggressive woman" is that it produces quite a different image to that of "an aggressive man". "An aggressive woman" that has a quite distinct meaning an our society, and is construed (generally) somewhat negatively as an "unfeminine" woman - a woman who's acting like a man. There is a distinct "you shouldn't be like that" attitude. As you say "An aggressive man" is held to be the sort of man society requires.

Like you, me and everyone else knows, these concepts are closely related to the idea that "Man" is supposed to be out there in the world fighting, or in our society now, competing. "Woman" is at home, nurturing etc.. The trouble, for me, is I am absolutely no good at competing. Not because I can't compete if it's absolutely necessary. But because so much of the "competition" I see seems like competition for the sake of competition. In a way it seems like a silly game. I've been like that since I was 16 [now I'm 58] and it makes me a pretty "unmasculine" man.

I think it's got to do with expressiveness as much as anything else. We all want to speak and be ourselves as we see ourselves to be. But then there's whole kind of menu of required characteristics that society demands from us. Dolores says she relates more easily to men and, oddly enough I kind of think I relate more easily to women - in a way I feel I have to "pass" often when I talk to men.

I don't know where that leaves me....

[Anne Bonny]

Anthony I am exactly the same! I spent twenty years in the Nurse Corps, but never made rank because I could never chew backside and knock heads together. I was never into confrontation, and enforcing standards which is an essential leadership characteristic. I have never had a problem working hard, meeting standards, and driving myself - I just never enjoyed having to drive other people. I have been told by one of my sisters that I am not aggressive and that my other sister is good at it - so we let her be the executor of my mother's (parent's) estate - she did a very good job a very detail oriented person as am I but also being in control (I could have been the executor but it is alot of work and my sister didn't mind doing it - HA!). I always enjoyed getting along with people and developing a good working relationship with my co workers. Another nurse who was there as part of home health for my wife in the presence of my badgering mother in law stated "Wow you have no standing in this family!" Noting that I was not very aggressive. Well, that was not really true because I have laid into my mother in law a few times - she tries to take over and be in control and starts demanding badgering, etc. BUT - she has issues (borderline personality), and I do not give in to any of that, just avoid it and keep doing what I want to do, I do consider her input but I make the decisions, and my
Wife has told me she NEVER wants to live with her mother OR to be under her control - I will never let that happen out of respect for my wife's wishes, she is my wife afterall.

But, agree. I am not competetive and not very aggressive - not to say that I can't be aggressive when I feel like it. That is considered by many to be unmanly in our society. If the waiter undercooks or brings the wrong thing, I eat it anyway, I prefer not making a scene. But I am no door mat either I can make a stand If I want to but not with trivia, has to be something important. Like a sense on honor, my values, my sense of right and wrong and of fair play.

[Anthony Simon]

I appreciate the apology. I cannot say that the last post did not bother me a bit. No, we don't know who we are talking to- but just because we have anonymity and the chance to speak our minds openly does not mean we can take a line, in one post, to essentially accuse them of something terrible. I don't want to be weary of what I write. I like to assume this is a good community and I interact with others under that filter.

Once again, I am glad we misunderstood each other.

Dolores wrote this about the accusation Anne made of child abuse. What she says here is that her confidence in the group has been shaken by the incident and also that it has made her weary. I know, from being on other groups that that's precisely the result accusations at this level of terribleness can have. For, even while they can be retracted or defeated, the person concerned no longer trusts the group in quite the same way afterwards. You're always afraid that something else is going to come out of the woodwork - and it is wearing, tiring dealing with such accusations.

Dolores hasn't posted since this.

{In addition, Dolores has not logged in to the forum since that date . . . and that could be just coincidence, as she may not have had time IRL to visit here. I sincerely hope that she does return. - SL}

[Anne Bonny]

I know, I went back and re read her posts and couldn't figure what got into me, I had written a better apology but in the end I went back and deleted large portions of my posts and just dropped it. I believe she was just saying that she is Bi, and enjoys dressing her adult male partners up in dresses - but saying that she feels at times she is an aggressive woman (feels more masculine?) and enjoys dressing "boys" - just like men all the time call women "girls" set me off, I should have re read, and actually thought more about it, but I wound up hurting Dolores, and myself as I still feel bad about it but we all have to move on. It was a bad posting day for me.

Actually as consenting adults, I wouldn't mind having a strong female friend who enjoyed my crossdressing and would want me in a dress with make up etc, and so much so that she wanted to actually dress me so that I looked good sounds wonderful in theory but I am married and have never strayed on my wife - a sacred bond - till death do you part, in sickness and in health...

[Dolores(GG)]

Anthony, don't worry I am not gone. Thank you for the concern, it 's nice to be missed. It just happens that I went on a trip and have not had access, that is all. :D I was bothered by it, but she apologized and I felt alot better. I understand how we can all get upset about things sometimes and I bear no grudge against Anne at all.