Crossdressers-Haven.com

my wife and i have been married 21 years. we have a wonderful marrige. i think better than any other couple i've met. she is truly my best friend and lover. we have three wonderful children. we laugh together, share the same interests, and truly enjoy each other's company. i know she is in love with my MALE persona. i couldn't imagine my life without her in it.

she was somewhat accepting of my C'Ding back when we were dating, and has on occasion tried to accomidate my needs over the years. i could tell that she didn't care for it though. she became less and less accepting over the years.

i responded (like many of you) by C'Ding in private. wearing her clothes and hiding things i bought for myself. i felt terrible because (even though she knows i CD) i was betraying her by hiding it from her. she must have somehow knew i continued to CD and it was eating away at her too.

a couple of years ago i came to a head. she threatened divorce if i didn't see a psychologist and rid myself of my female persona. i went. my counselor assured me that my C'Ding was considered normal within the scope of human sexuality. she was mainly concerned that i was able to deal with my feelings of guilt and self hatred due to the marital stress.

i have since, stopped going to counseling. my wife and i don't talk about the C'Ding except for a recent discussion in which i cofessed that i still did it. this made her very angry. She said, "if there was something so trivial that i did that upset you this much, i would just stop doing it immediately!"

she can't accept this part of me, i can't stop. does anyone have any advice on how to come to a compromise before this leads to divorce?

Shannon,

This is something most of us who are married have experienced at one time or another in our marriages.

The only advice I can give you, ( from personal experience ) is to have a " heart to heart " talk with your wife, being totally honest. Explain to her that this is a need deep inside you that stop or deny. Tell her straight out that you never intended to hurt her in any way with your CDing but that this is something, an inner need which you have to express in order to feel "whole".

Listen to her reaction, and I mean really listen to her concerns. Your wife, like most wives, is probably feeling a loss of her husband due to the fact that you dress. She may also feel threatened ( her femininity ) or that she is not attractive to you anymore. She may also feel embarassed that someone might see you dressed enfemme and ridicule her for staying in the marriage.

But most importantly you have to insure her that you love her more than anything else in this world and that you would do anything in this world for her that you could and have control of, but this is something you can't control.

Try to come to a compromise with her that allows you to dress and with which she will be comfortable with. Talk it out, let her set the limits that she will be willing ( if any ) to let you fulfill your needs to dress. It may not be all that you want but except whatever she decides in the beginning. After awhile she may feel more at ease with your dressing that she will allow you more leeway in your femme time.

This approach has worked for me and my wife. I can be dressed at home for the most part anytime I feel the need the need to do so without my wife getting upset. But if she asks me not to dress, I honor her request at that time to show her that her feelings are important to me.

In any event, whatever you decide to do I wish you the best of luck. This is a slippery slope that us married people have to deal with.

Shannon wrote:

a couple of years ago i came to a head. she threatened divorce if i didn't see a psychologist and rid myself of my female persona.

She said, "if there was something so trivial that i did that upset you this much, i would just stop doing it immediately!"

Hi Shannon--
These two statements say to me that there's some talking that has to go on before you and she can really begin negotiating. I know this is a bias, but "solutions" that involve the CD biting the bullet and somehow quitting forever do not seem to work. I do say it's a bias, however, because any CD that chooses this method doesn't stay on this forum to tell us how it went--they say goodbye, and we never hear from them again. Did it work? The majority of evidence says it won't, but we don't hear one way or the other from the ones who attempt it.

So any advice you get on here will involve spouses negotiating about how both of them can live with the fact that the husband CDs. None of us are going to suggest that you think about quitting. That is just not a realistic option. You and your wife need to find a therapist who accepts this, though.

And that is a negotiation in and of itself. My TG girlfriend and her wife could not agree on a therapist. She wanted a religious counselor who would "cure" LeeAnne, and LeeAnne wanted a therapist who was familiar with TG issues. But the wife felt that any therapist who accepted transgender as valid was already an advocate for it.

LeeAnne had already gone to a religious counselor on her own for four years, in an attempt to be cured. So at that point, the wife was being unreasonable in insisting that more of that particular approach was going to work. The wife could and did insist that LeeAnne just didn't try hard enough. She was not willing to see the four years as a strong committment. In the end, they did divorce, and part of it was because they could not even agree on finding a neutral person to listen to both of their viewpoints.

You can also go through the archives here, and see what kind of advice people have gotten on this issue over the years. You're not alone in the situation you're facing, and there's been a lot of writing on it. I know that it helps to get feedback on your particular situation in the here/now, and you'll get responses to your post here. General advice doesn't have quite the same clout. But do check out the "Coping for CDs" past posts, and you'll find a lot of stories about how others have dealt with the same kind of issues.

I'm going out on a limb here, but her comment about CDing being trivial sounds to me as if she sees it as a fetish, rather than something else. If that is the case, then it's fairly easy to see how she thinks you can do with out it - sorta like people do without other sexual toys.

It also occurs to me that she may think, as I did when my guy first told me that he wears women's clothes, that it was sorta like a hobby. In fact, I thought that he was telling me that he *liked* to wear women's clothes - but it never occurred to me that he was telling me that he would *continue* to wear them! I guess I thought it was part of the getting-to-know-you dance of "I used to drink a lot", "I've had a gazillion partners", "I posed for Playboy when I was 18" type-confessions.

I know... it just didn't occur to me that it was part of his makeup - i thought it was more like "I like to fish", "I like whips and chains". It took me a bit of time on this site to get the hang of the idea of a woman within.

I suppose I would suggest that you first find out what your wife thinks crossdressing is - in the broader sense. Not where it came from or why you do it but Bob over there doesn't - just get a broad idea of whether she interprets it as part of the TG range or fetish range or just a hobby kind of thing. See if her definition of it comes anywhere close to your definition of it.

I would say, though, that this *may* open up a can of worms. People who are moderately ok with it as a fetish or a "hobby" (??? I suppose there are some for whom it is a take it or leave it hobby ...) are way not OK with the whole idea of transgenderedness (is that word?) OTOH, if she sees it as a fundamental part of who you are, that may make it easier.

Please, do not take just my word for it. Filter this through your knowledge of your wife. You've known her for 21 years. And, if you think she has beome less accepting of it over the years, as you said, you might try gently (GENTLY!!!!) poking around in that to see if anything changed.

hope this helps,
georgia(so)

Hi, Shannon,

This is a difficult and painful situation you and your wife find yourselves in. What should you do? There is no easy answer...and it's complicated because none of us knows your unique situation as intimately as you do.

Anita makes a good point, though. Many (and I do mean many) of us have walked this same road. Yes, by all means, read some of the old posts. They may be helpful. But....

(1) They may help you realize that you are not alone. But given the pain your wife is feeling, you may still have to face her need to hurt you in return. (I speak from bitter experience, here. Your relationship may be healthier than ours.)

(2) If she will read them, those old posts may help her realize the truth of your situation, and she may even contact other SO's who will be able to help her realize tht she is not alone, either. But, (again, I speak from experience here,) she may not wish to go online at all. My wife simply refused to "share her secrets with strangers." You cannot force her to go where she does not want to go.

(3) Those old posts show common threads, but your own situation is unique in its details. In the end, only the two of you can do anything about it.

I can only say that in our situation, ultimately, I had to say "no" to her demands. That was probably the most difficult thing I have ever done. I had tried counselling. (It didn't help. She refused to go.) Twice I came very close to suicide. ("Who's feeling sorry for himself, now?" she sneered.) Friends told me to leave. I tried, but couldn't. All I could see in front of me, at that point, was a life of misery, loneliness and despair. Oh, and, of course, disgrace, once she outed me to her friends, who, naturally would come fluttering to her side, cooing, "Poor thing! Imagine having to put up with a pervert like that all those years! How on earth did you do it? You must be so glad to be rid of him! And you got half his pension plus the house? Good for you! Serves him right."

Finally, though, I found a counsellor...for myself. A good one. Three others hadn't worked at all. After only three sessions, it was clear what I needed to do. I left, and it shocked her to the core. "No," I would no longer try to accommodate her demands. Giving in only lead to escalated demands. And "No," I would no longer subject myself to pain, humiliation, and abuse. Despite everything, despite all my fears, I left, and amazingly, the pain stopped.

And that was when she finally heard me. "No, I cannot...I will not be less than who I am."

That was when the shift happened, finally, for her. That was when she finally agreed to seek counselling for the two of us. Not her counsellor. Not my counsellor. A counsellor for the two of us. It wasn't easy. We tried several before we found one who was a good fit for both of us.

Here's where the individual details come in, I guess. For us, it wasn't just the TG issues that separated us, it was a whole long history of unhappiness and abuse. And though I've tried, I have yet to find any real research on husbands who are abused by their wives, but I'm here to tell you that this kind of abuse exists, it causes real harm, (both emotional and even, occasionally physical,) and it's probably more common than many might think.

We had to find a whole new way of relating to each other...to overcome 32 years of habit. That was about two years ago. We still have a ways to go, but it's better...much better than it was. I still live apart, much of the time. But not all the time.

I am who I am, and she has come to accept that. (Some wives would not.) That was her decision. I did not pressure her one way or the other. I was prepared to accept her reaction to my leaving whatever it might have been, and she knew it.

Probably the most valuable thing my counsellor taught me was that I cannot be responsible for someone else's happiness. I can only be responsible for my own. For 32 years, I tried to make her happy. Again and again, I gave in. All it led to was more and more pain, humiliation, and abuse. After all, why wouldn't it? It had always got her what she wanted before. So all my efforts had led to nothing. She was not happy. Neither was I.

I'm sorry to be going on for so long, here. I'll try to sum up:

For us, the TG issues were just one more complication in an already unhealthy relationship. You will have to judge what you do based on your own circumstances.

From my own experience, I would be very reluctant to "negotiate" with my wife, if it meant either one of us became involved in a power struggle. Once power enters into the equation, no one is going to be happy with whatever outcome is agreed to. At the very least, she will still resent my dressing, and I will resent the restrictions. But actually it's probably more than that. She will still resent my being transgenered. And I will resent every attempt on her part (real or imagined) to make me feel ashamed. My being TG will continue to drive a wedge between us. Get what I mean?

Again, from my own experience, I would seriously urge you to seek professional counselling. If not for the two of you, then for yourself. It's expensive, (some workplaces provide some counselling as an employee benefit) but even if you have to pay for it yourself, aren't you worth it?

Oh Shannon,

It's hard times like yours that make me appreciate my wife of 32+ years all the more.

As I read all the excellent advice already given, I was thinking just like Karen, that the crossdressing is not really the problem. Your wife may not even know what the real problem is. Unless you are a magician, probably only professional help will allow her to learn the real problem. For help to work, help has to be sought. Until she accepts the possibility that she is not perfect, she's not likely to seek help with much of an open mind. Without knowing the real problem, you will have a hard time helping her through the real problem. Then again, maybe you know the real problem, and just haven't confessed here. The biggest problem could still be you, without it being your crossdressing. For now we will assume it is not you, or that you don't know it is you.

Only a willingness on her part to learn more about transgenderism will persuade her that crossdressing is most assuredly anything BUT trivial. In 10,000 years of written history, we've put men on the moon, and cured many horrible diseases such as leprosy and plague. The US Military is supposedly now working on tactical telepathic communication, and yet we have a very shallow and Barbarian psychiatric understanding of transgenderism.

You could tell her that you know many people here on this site that are transgendered, and that many of us have successful marriages with supportive spouses. Unless she reads it for herself (and why should she if she already believes that it cannot be so) then she will not believe it.

You could ask her to read a book or two (such as My Husband Betty). That book has certainly been a positive influence against ignorance and bigotry. But again, she has to decide she wants to read it. Otherwise it is destined to be perceived as just propaganda designed to make her miserable.

Most long-term marriages fail for many reasons, most having nothing to do with crossdressing, even where such is present. Your marriage may not be salvageable, no matter what her attitudes on CDing. If the worst comes to pass, you must try to begin to view this is a cloud with a silver lining. Peace and tranquility often accompany divorces that result from irreconcilable problems.

Even my own marriage of 32+ years has not been perfect, and has not gone without very stressful and indeed terrifying tests of love and trust. Cding was not a factor, so the tests we faced aren't really relevant to your situation, but the point I am trying to make is that, at the moment of truth, when my wife dropped the bombs on me and then demanded a divorce, I just asked "Why a divorce?" I'm not saying that her devastating bombs weren't devastating - they were. What I am saying is that, at the height of tension, I wasn't ready to give up on a marriage of 27 years just because she had violated my trust in a very big financial way. As it turned out - she wasn't ready either, so she felt compelled to offer that she was asking for a divorce because she expected me to want one, and she just wanted to beat me to the punch. The biggest threat to our marriage was her guilt. I had to help her through the guilt while also dealing with financial devastation. It wasn't easy, but it was worth it.

This next will sound shallow, but there really is wisdom in it. King Arthur of Camelot queried "How to handle a woman?" and then answered "simply love her... merely love her...love her...love her."

Have you learned unconditional love? Do you still love your wife? Will you always love your wife (as you promised)? Have you told her? Have you tried to show her?

I know all this advice mostly just gives you a headache. It's all we can do. We are all hoping for the best, and preparing for the worst. Come what may, better days are ahead.

Hugs,

Bernice

Many of us along the way have trapped ourselves by what we have said - and probably believed - when we were dating our wives. In my own case, I told my wife of my dressing, and even told her about the time my father caught me and humiliated me in front of my mother about it. But I made it clear to her that this was something that was in my past. And she (and I!) believed me.

But I later found out that I had been wrong, and that it would stay with me throughout my life. The longest I ever went was 10 years without dressing, and during that time I really thought it was "over". Well, it wasn't. And as open and honest a relationship as I have with my wife, I cannot bring myself to talk about this. I know she has discovered evidence of my dressing in the past, and I am convinced that she has not talked about it because she just can't take it on. She accepts it, I think, as long as it isn't in front of all of us.

We have many stresses and strains on us - her aging parents, my aging parents, our disabled children. I cannot in good conscience ask her to bear one more thing. And now, with my job hanging by a thread as an utterly incompetent (and arrogant!) boss seeks to scapegoat me for decisions he helped to make, she is being more helpful and supportive than I could ever have dreamed. More than once in the past three weeks have I wept in appreciation of her.

So, there I am, trapped by my past declarations and my current circumstances. We each have to make our own calls on this.

I wonder if, in your case, she was so accepting when you were dating and so unaccepting now because perhaps you gave the impression (intentionally or not) that it was not a big thing back then. If/when you sit down to talk with her, this is something that you will have to know before you start, and if so, you will have to address it.

Because there are so many myths about CDing, you will have to master them before you approach her. One thing you may want to do is to link the sensitivity of your personality (my wife has always said she loves the fact that I am so sensitive) to your femme side. They go together. If you are like me, your dressing is an outward expression of this latent femininity. You will have to be prepared to explain where you fall on the TG continuum.

I agree with the posts above that urge you to listen to her as you would have her listen to you. Because in the end, you will be talking through major decisions - whether or not you are to stay together, and how much each is willing to give up that is important to him/her in order to do so. That's not to say it is a bargaining session - that could turn cold and hard in an instant. Rather, it is a statement of mutual needs. We always try to meet the needs of those we love. Sometimes, that's hard to do.

I will be praying for you both.

Hugs,

Erin

Well, you can either continue to CD and hide it, however, you need to learn not to feel guilty when you do. And you cannot bring it up in discussion. You run the risk of getting caught and all crap hitting the fan.

Alternatively, you can quit. But we know that's not likely, don't we. Sure, maybe for a few days/weeks/moths/years, but we know urge is likely to return, and may even return with a vengeance.

The best option, however, is to get her to understand this isn't a hobby, etc. It is a part of who you are and would gladly quit if you could, but you can't.

See if she'll join the forum so she can talk with other SOs.

My wife kept bringing up the divorce word for years, and finally, on our 30th anniversary, when she did it again, I had enough. So, I kept a vow to myself that if she brought it up again, I would say OK. I told her that I couldn't quit, and she knew good and well that I couldn't. I told here that I loved her very much, and if she wanted a divorce, then I wouldn't fight it. That I'd still love her, but if she needed that to be happy, then so be it.

She stopped ranting, looked at me, and left. She came back an hour or so later, and we talked some more. This year will be our 34th anniversary.

A Lot of Marrages end up in Divorce. I cannot say it better than it's been done above, but both of you have to work thru this. Asking you to change yourself into somone else won't work. It's going to boil down to can she get past this and still find the love she had for you?

Yes or No?

If no then guess what's next? Divorce.

But good suggestion she has to get educated about CD's and such. Heck if most of us could change and not do this I bet we would.

I went thru 2 marrages and on third. All knew about me from the start. One brokeup cause it did not work, 2nd because "I was not man enough". Third time has been the charm for me.

Again I think with all the time in your marrage I should think both of you can get past this.

It's only clothes. Could be lots worse things in a marrage. Physical Abuse, Non Support, Drinking, Gambling etc.

DM

Shannon I identified strongly with your post. I've been married 23 years, we're in love and all that. I told my wife after a year of marriage althought I presented it as something I used to do. I drop hints from time to time but not much else. Sort of a don't ask don't tell with me not knowing how much she really knows. I work at home alone so I have lots of time to myself and don't feel the need to go out much. I have little in the way of suggestions since I have not addressed this successfully myself except in that I have managed to conceal it.

THe comment about "something so trivial" speaks volumes. It has been used in a variety of other disagreements between my wife and I and has always proved to be something difficult to resolve. Part of the issue with this statement is in it's false assumptions. If it something so trivial then why does it upset her so much. Most likely the very things that make it important to her are what make it important to you. So perhaps a starting point is to understand exactly why this is important to you and to her.

We talk about our inner woman here a lot. But is it that part of you is really female? Is it a fetish? Don't discount the power of sex, and if this is a fetish then it has all the power of you and your wife making love to each other. Is she afraid of what comes next?

Remember that you two love each other, that yes you might run into a burning building for each other but that neither can become someone that your are not.

Let us know what happens and if you find a solution I am all ears.

Absaroka

thank you to all who have taken the time to consider my situation. i have really taken to heart the suggestions that i truly consider HER feelings. hopefully my effort to understand her side will lead her to try to understand me and the female persoality i share my body with. heck, even I need to understand more about shannon too!

i was intrigued by Absoroka's question about between being transgendered or just haveing a fetish. i've never really considered that there was a difference. does anyone have more input ton clarifying the difference between the two?

and again, thank you to all for your considerate advice.
.....shannon

Some people feel that they are of a different gender than what their body appears to be. A woman with a mans body, a man with a womans body, someone who is both in an unambiguously gendered body, someone with an ambiguously gendered body. Some of these people find SRS to address a lot of their discomfort.

Other people feel yes I am really of one gender but I have characteristics of another gender as well. Personally I reject a lot of those labels of characteristics as they apply to me, but not everyone shares that view. One person may say that being a father is being nurturing, another may say that they are a man feeling maternal.

Some men find wearing womens clothing to be a sexual act more than an act of assuming the gender of the clothing. In my case I enjoy wearing womens clothing precisely because I am a man. I am not getting in touch with my inner woman, I am getting in touch with my fantasy of a woman, and with something that I am not.

Sex for men involves being inside another person. Being inside the clothing is a way of being inside another person.

Many of us when we were younger masturbated while dressed, with the dressing being an integral part of the experience. To me this seems very male. Sure women may feel sexy wearing sexy lingerie but I don't think many women find that wearing their lingerie is a big part of their masturbatory experiences.

Often borrowing clothing is a form of affection. Like when my daughter wears my flannel shirt. She is not expressing sexual ideation towards me, not attempting to appear male. She is wearing the shirt however because it is mine.

My daughters and I will exchange gender neutral clothing. I will occaisonlly wear one of their over sized sweatshirts for example. It is an expression of affection. I do not wear my daughters bras and panties. It would feel like incest. I sometimes wear my wifes, although not often since I bought my own. My wife is the only woman who's bra's and panties I would wear. Wearing any other womans would feel like infidelity. Why is that do you think? If I was truly expressing my inner woman than it would be okay to wear other womens underwear, just as my wife would loan her panties to another woman if she needed them, and she and my daughters sometimes wear each others panties. (not bras as they won't fit) I don't wear my wifes lingeire very much anymore because I have not asked her if this would be okay, and I have learned here that wearing her clothes without permission is intrusive.

I find that there are other reasons to wear my woman clothes. Sometimes it is just a bit of inner theatricality. But it's always linked to sex. I'm 55. Sometimes all I want of sex is to cuddle. When I sit in the back yard reading a book in a dress I'm cuddling myself rather than making mad passionate love like when I was younger. Sometimes I am nurturing myself, just as in a good relationship sex is nurturing.

But whatever it is I am doing, I don't want to be a woman. Sure it would be fun for a week just to see what it's like. Then I would start saving money for SRS to put me back to being a man.

I hope that explains my thoughts on the difference.

Absaroka