Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi all,

I have started this thread so that we might be able to get a picture of any success any of us might have at educating society, as many of us who post here seem to think we should do.

This thread was inspired by Tea-Cakes thread on how would you describe CDing to a community? And is meant to be an addition to it.

I do not believe that we will see any marked success. and this is your opportunity to enlighten me.

Thanks Darlene! I've wanted to say lots of this but do think that that other thread could be used mostly for coming up with the letters and the destinations for the letters-----a place to discuss the merits and weaknesses of that project here is a great idea.

I agree with the idea that a more personal journey to acceptence does occur within the spaces that each CDer is able to define for themselves.

Whether this is something that is only shared with SO's or maybe even a few close friends and complete strangers while en femme.Or with no one at all. At least not on purpose.

With a lot of us There is a reluctance to share it with everyday people in our lives. Sometimes a proud and defiant reluctance.

I have chosen to focus on that as a thread because I think on the edges of our comfort-zone is where the discovery lay.

Perhaps describing CDing in a modern and quick way----with a few well chosen words----this could help us further define ourselves TO OURSELVES.

We are so completely vested in this subject because it is a part of our souls----we have the patience to read these threads closely( or texts on ANIMA for example) because we are fueled by a desire to understand ourselves.

Someone who is not a CDer does not seem to have that same intense focus on understanding it as we do. Naturally they wouldn't.

The format of a letter to the editor is a great one for trying to frame ideas simply and briefly.

The next time you open a newspaper and read a letter to the editor about an issue you care little for, see how far into the writing you get. Some one will pull it off-----trying to write effectively in this format is a great way to try and streamline our perspectives objectively.


So in the first department: that is our own wholeness and confidence--

--we are very successfully begining to identify and define our 5%---and with a reassuring elevation of focus that makes this forum so fantastic.


I enjoy your addition of this sister- thread to measure our success.

to sum up our success thus far:

The begining is an elevation of focus--------by approaching the edge of one of CDings greatest comfort-zones.
<<Who knows about this part of us?>>

What defense mechanisms begin to reveal themselves----when we approach notion how others see us?

In a way,
I'm still actually on your solstice-thread on WHAT ARE WE AS CROSS DRESSERS?

If you recall,--- I believe we can only truly love and understand ourselves---if we can love others first.


It seems to me that as internal is turned outward-----it can lead to a suprising shift in how we view ( and love) ourselves. A stronger and more complete love?

To me that means the trail points to the edge of this comfort zone------

following those uncertain feelings to make sure our finger is on our own pulse

---to guage and be sure

It hasn't become --rather than a temporary safe-place or creative expression

---into a stopping place
which blocks out other potentials.

Rich potentials.-


What is along the journey to that edge?

as we define ourselves in a concise way?

and Coming soon: Can the great-energy of this forum be skipped like a stone accross the water?



We shall count the ripple rings here together, my friend, thanks for this thread.
----------------- Tea-cake

Hi Darlene,

I know you don't beleive in trying to get society to come around to our way of thinking, because in your opinion it is futile. While I agree that perhaps in the short term you are correct, and indeed in the long term you may also be correct, I beleive that all peoples minds are changed about bigotry, one person at a time. One real person, telling another person it is wrong, and telling them why.

In 1970 it was still considered a mental disorder to be gay. 34 years later we have gay people being married, having children, and living fulfulling lives. Now I won't go as far as to say that society is totally accepting of gays and lesbians, but they have protections in some states and countries. Most people come in contact with gays everyday now, just like they did when the gays were in the closet. Just now they don't have to hide.

I think the more people who come out of the crossdressing closet and show people we are people, real, loving, caring, people. It is only then will be be accepted. And perhaps not for us, but for those who will undoubtedly follow us.

I recently came out to my friends on a fibromyalgia message board. I wanted to share a comment with you that was in reply to my coming out.

wreckless 06/06/04 05:44 AM

I can't tell you that I easily accept such choices or even begin to understand them. The fact that you are so open in your post makes such a differance with people like myself who must really be more open minded than we realize ourselves. How can I feel so much compassion if I really felt what you choose to do is wrong?

You open peoples eyes when you open up to them. It is not what a person does, but the person themselves that becomes real and loved. Thank you for opening my eyes.

No matter what I grew up with, ideas that it is wrong to be different. I must have something deep inside that says, we are all different and in many ways. What a beautiful person you must be. I hope you come here often as I feel we all have a wonderful friend in you.

I also must comment on the post regarding the young son. (sorry it doesn't take long for me to forget names). Letting your child develop into the person they were meant to be is the most wonderful gift any parent can give a child. Unconditional love at it's purest. How lucky this child is. God bless both of you.

Here is the thread URL if you are interested. You will have to sign up to read it.
http://www.immunesupport.com/chat/forum ... =FM#399950

So yes, I do think we can achieve acceptance, but it is one person at a time.

Love to all,
Elizabeth

Thanks for sharing that Elizabeth-----there is a light that shines from you and it has added peace to my day.
--------------------Tea-cake

Elizabeth,

That was a fantastic post. Thank you very much for sharing that.

I think the more people who come out of the crossdressing closet and show people we are people, real, loving, caring, people. It is only then will be be accepted. And perhaps not for us, but for those who will undoubtedly follow us.

That is exactly how I feel.

I must agree with Tea-cake, you have brightened my day!

Mine, too, Elizabeth.

Thanks, girl.

Love,
CJ

Hi all,

I do not have a problem with brain storming to come up with ideas on how to go about it. In fact I encourage it.

I have friends who have been in the position to bring about change in society, and have been successful in bringing about change. Change needs to continue to happen all the time.

What I have learned from them is that if you want change to happen, you have to present something, that will work. It is not enough to point out to them that the present situation is faulty. And even then it has taken them a life time.

They were not successful at changing one person at a time. They focused on people they felt were key people, and then let those people work on others, and they were successful.

So I am saying to you all go for it, don't believe me, record it here, and let math determine our success rate. Prove me wrong, I would like that.

So far the people that I have told what my habits are have been shocked at first, then very wary, then after a few days are back to normal with no real change. I have yet to reveal to anyone that i'm certain would attempt to drag my name through the mud.

I figure by being picky about hose that know I can sort of build a backing for the day that someone takes an exception to my ways and attempts to sling the mud. I'll have an army stading around me ready to go!

CJ.

Being as you took the liberty to state; The best way to make a difference is to not hide behind a sense of futility, behind an ornery fatalism, however justified we may think it is. Usually, those who believe they have no power, don't.

I now feel free (with all due respect) to ask you if it is OK to hide from reality, by assuming? I now feel the need to ask you what you are afraid of? Even given your estimation of how the math might work, Is there not some merit in recording our success? I mean there are 500 plus members here. If one tenth of us were successful at your figures we would surely succeed. Or do you feel that is asking to much?

I would suggest to you that if we can't get one tenth out of 500 of our own kind, there may be need for some more in depth inward research to take place.

I sponsored 10 different inmates from a prison over an eight year period, and I helped some to change, but the one I was able to help the most re-offended. I mean there was remarkable improvement in this guy. So much so that his cell mate wanted me to take him on after his release, because he had seen the changes in this guy.

So what I am saying to you all is get off your butts get out there and get some practical, Then come back here and share your experiences.

I have heard people say (who have had no practical) that if you help just one person it would be worth it.... Worth what?.... If you can help one you can help more than one.

Hi girls,

My 21 year old daughter who supports me is now continually buying girls jeans for her male friends who want to wear them, but are too embarassed to go and buy them. It is not an uncommon event for my 17 year old son to have friends of his show up with eye makup on.

According to my daughter, her generation is way more accepting than the preceding generations. She really thinks it is no big deal. She has many friends in the GLBT communities. She thinks I make way to big of a deal about it. She thinks it is the wave of the future. She has showed me lots of pictures from events she attends to show me how feminine the guys are dressing, and I must admit, they are looking very feminine. However, this is Southern California. Which means he may or not catch on in the rest of the country.

The point is, change is already at hand. The world is an ever changing thing, it is never static. When I look at history and see tolerance increase continually with the arrow of time, I have every reason to believe that will continue, as the world becomes a smaller place, and tolerance will become more required as a survival tool.

When my therapist asked me today what I would say when someone asks me why my nails are painted I said "because it makes me feel good" She thought that was a good answer. I doubt anyone will ever ask me where I live. People will continue to think of it as a disgusting sexual fetish, until someone tells them othewise. My biggest proof that society can and will accept us is the fact that we are here discussing it. That is the first thing that has to happen.

And look how this membership is growing. There are a lot of us out there. No one will accept us until they know we are out there, not just a rumour about some lonely man that no one has ever seen crossdressed. But real crossdressers saying, "this is me, I am a part of this society, deal with it"
Every civil rights movement that has been sucessful works in this way. You can force acceptance. It does not take long before no one remembers when we didn't accept things. But it was not all that long ago that different races were not allowed to marry and took a huge personal risk going out in public. But they went out anyway. And said "we have a right to love who we want"

And so do we.

Love always
Elizabeth

What if there aren't 500 members to this forum. What if all these posts ---that you interact with---are being written by one very busy writer, What if the Voices of Be, Deborah, Lorna, Vicky---and all the others being animated like in a master puppet-show? With Attention to character always precise.

Perhaps this is a useful way to illustrate a world-view that believes we all share the same soul----at our deepest point ---we all spring from the same ----
Isn't that how forgiveness works? That as we forgive others we are forgiving our own short-comings as well?

Isn't that how love works? That as we show love to others we are showing a love to ourselves?

To measure success by number in such a world-view would be like casting a dram of salt into a pond and calling it the sea.

The people of this earth are so many as to confound our perceptions.
As are the webs and branches that join these lives together.

But to frame virtue and and weave with the roots of the grass----perhaps our lives ARE made more successful.

The belief that although the world can be sometimes dark with shadow

we can add our light to the sum of light.

Counting rays of light or droplets in a spiders web------or the amount of flaps a butterfly makes as she flys away? You could stop to count.

I'd rather watch her colorful wings and share a moment ----that this world already seems full of just what we need.

We are---I believe---expressing the heart of the world as we attempt to define a view with inclusion at its center.

-----------------------TC

Tea-Cake wrote;
Isn't that how forgiveness works? That as we forgive others we are forgiving our own short-comings as well?
Isn't that how love works? That as we show love to others we are showing a love to ourselves?

I do not understand that? I forgive others because I have been forgiven. He who forgives a little has been forgiven of little.

I was not able to forgive those who harmed me untill I first was forgiven,

I have shared enough of what I have went through in life to give you a picture. Those who intentionaly harmed me in the past. have fallen into the traps they set for me. As a result I have friends in very high places. that I would never have had if it were not for those who caused me to to go through what I went through. No those who harmed me did not forgive me, they fear me, as they had hoped I would fear them. Even though that is not my wish. I would that they could be set free. But I feel blessed that the tables have been turned. I feel loved, I feel forgiven, I feel special, and because I feel loved I am able to love you.

What is it that causes you to stuggle so hard with this? what would be the harm in seeing if we can be successfull? What is the point of your thread if we aren't going to go some where with it?

I refer to CJ's words;
The best way to make a difference is to not hide behind a sense of futility, behind an ornery fatalism, however justified we may think it is. Usually, those who believe they have no power, don't.

As we forgive others we are forgiving the humaness in ourselves.

As fate does weave with circumstance don't we play many roles in similar situations as our lives unfold?

Aren't we sometimes the villian because of our human-frailty?

Don't we all understand the lie?

And regret ----and look back and wonder HOW was it that I WAS that way back then?

We forgive each other for being human is another way to put it.

I believe retrospect counts----that is forgiving ourselves and others in the past.

---and we are too human and can only carry so much.

Travelling lightly..

It really is no struggle---this world view-----it is quite light.

We should define our goal though. And I do thank you for pointing this out.

If it were a number to be discussed how about how many letters will be sent?

and to where?


------I do enjoy this dialogue Darlene---I am engaged by the points at which our world-views depart.

I will reflect on your point of view on those occaisions.


---------------------------TC

Tea-Cake stated;
If it were a number to be discussed how about how many letters will be sent? and to where?

How about a little research on the effectiveness of letters to those who don't have the same interests, or beliefs as ours? Probably a place where one could start is here. How many of us have been changed by posts from those with opposing views? I have been helped by thoughts some of us have expressed, but keep in mind that those from whom I have received help from have not been trying to change me. those with opposing views have no effect in bringing me to there way of thinking, just as my views that are opposite yours will not change you.

May I suggest a poll in which one can find out what kinds of letters from people with opposing views have changed others here?

Hi Elisabeth,

I want to thank you for your positive input here, The hippie generation challenged the norm of society, but most of them are now the norm that your daughter and her friends are now challenging, so I am not so sure that it is what it appears to be? I suspect that this generation also will change as they continue to mature.