Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi all,

I've been wondering lately what exactly the difference is between the way we reveal ourselves to an SO and the way we do so to a friend or colleague.

One of the big differences, for me, is that I can go much more slowly and gradually, over a much longer period of time, with friends and colleagues than I can with someone who shares in my personal life on a more intimate level.

If, at some point, you decide to, say, shave your legs, there's not much of a chance your wife or girlfriend won't notice. However, with colleagues or friends, that's not the case.

I take my own situation as a case in point. My colleagues know that, once in a while, I shave my entire body (facial hair included). At first, they were curious. I merely explained it away as something I enjoy doing for the sensuous feel of it. No big deal, right? Now, they still notice but hardly ever comment on it. Same with my fingernails, which I usually keep painted with clear polish. When they first started noticing and asking questions, I just replied that I'm proud of my hands and find that my nails just look better that way, especially when they catch a glint of sunshine or a ray of light. They don't ask anymore. Same goes for my hair colour. I've died my hair a few times since I began working there. I usually go for a shade darker than my own natural colour, say, "Midnight Plum" (very black with 'eggplant' highlights) as opposed to my own dark brown. Yesterday, in preparation for our office Christmas party, I dyed my hair "Deep Auburn," a very warm brown with reddish copper highlights. Which brings me to the reason for this post.

It seems I've taken another step toward full self-disclosure to my colleagues with the way I appeared at the party last night. A red silk shirt. (I've worn silk at work before--some of my male colleagues do too.) A pair of my ex-girlfriend's dress jeans (tight in the butt for a sexy look). My body clean-shaven. My hair dyed reddish-brown. My short beard trimmed Arab-style (a thin mustache and an even thinner line of hair along the jawline). And, to top it off (or, to top it under, I guess), pink satin panties in a floral motif and and all-sheer tan pantyhose underneath my jeans (this, despite my earlier misgivings about "underdressing" at one of our infamous parties). Well, people, I tell you: I was a "babe magnet"! The attention I got from some of my more eligible "bachelorette" colleagues just blew me away. Some of the women that had always been friendly enough towards me were now following me around. I almost felt hounded. Many of the guys were intrigued also. It was a good party.

At one point, after the buffet, I sat with two of my female colleagues, as they discussed push-up bras, manicures (one woman, at some point in the conversation, holding up my hand to further inspect my own fingernails!) and bikini line electrolysis. I participated in the conversation (of course, I did!) but I tried not to appear too eager or knowledgeable about any given subject. It was heavenly. Later, another one of my colleagues came to drag me out on the dance floor when the DJ slapped Neil Diamond's "Girl, You'll Be A Woman Soon" onto the turntable and held my hands and looked me in the eye as she mouthed every one of the words to the song while we danced. That's when I started clueing in that something was up.

I figure that my crossdressing is probably the worst-kept secret at work; my colleagues never push me for details (they're respectful that way) and, from the occasional wink in my direction when the subject comes up in a general discussion, they seem to be very accepting of the whole transgender scene.

Understand that my gradual "coming out" is taking place very slowly; I've been working there for four years now and I've been dropping hints (verbal or otherwise) for at least that long. It seems to be working.

Amusing highlight of the evening last night: my boss led me to the buffet tables and asked me to breathe in some of the spicy aroma of the food laid out under the heat lamps. When I did so, he said, "okay, I just needed to confirm that my eyes weren't deceiving me." The place was very dark, except for the heat lamps and, when I leaned over, he saw that my hair was, indeed, reddish. He said, "One question: Why?" I answered, "Because I can and I did." That was as good an answer as any, I guess. He left me to go to the bar, shaking his head and smiling.

Anyway, I think the day is fast approaching when (possibly at one of our "full house" monthly meetings), I'll just make it a special point on the agenda to come forth more fully as a crossdresser. We'll see. I'll keep you all posted.

Love,
CJ

CJ, I enjoyed reading about your slow progression of comming out at work. How fantastic it would be to just be out about it and accepted. Sure there are always the clowns and jerks that would take issue with it but you know if people just get to know the real you what you wear or some of the things you do that are a bit different they will over look them cause they will see you as the person you are.

Where I work? No way baby! I work in an office and in the department I work in I am the only male. I am always wanting to dress and be one of the other office girls and I really do think that if I could be one of the grils my work would improve because I would not always be thinking about doing it and being one of the girls. The thing is the company I work for, one of the leading scavangers in the world, is very maschulin and macho orientated and if I was ever found out to be a CD not only would I face humility and harassment at work, I know for sure, from years of working with these guys, that it would follow me to my home and family.

When the subject of outreach is brought up the ones doing the outreach are mostly talking to people who will listen and want to be enlightened. The people I would have to deal with Just don't get it or want to, it would be a threat to them, a sign of weakness and very qureerish to them and no good would come out of it.

Now to answer your question. For me when I came out to my wife I had my feelings that everything could go wrong and I could lose her but then the other thing that made it posable was that her and I had a relationship and love. I knew if I came out to her and she would not freak out and leave me right off the bat that at least the door for discussion would be open and in time waiting for and finding the right time we could deal with it more openly together.

It took a good 20 years for my wife to really start to accept and start to understand but in the past few years since we have joined Tri-ess things have only gotten better and better for us. However, that is not to say that my wife would be unhappy if one day this all went away and she just had her husband back full time.

I too enjoyed reading you slow coming out.

I find myself saying things every once in awhile that give people clues that I cross dress.

Hi girls,

Nancy, I completely agree with you when you say that people will tend to overlook oddish behaviour on your part if they've had the chance to come and get to know you better as a person. Which is why I think it's important to take this kind self-disclosure slowly, gradually, and with the ultimate end always foremost in your mind: to allow people to know the real you.
Of course, you do have to go about this wisely and with some discernment, I think. Not everyone's open to this stuff. It's a shame you don't think you could ever find acceptance in your workplace. Are you sure that's the case, Nancy? As posted elsewhere in the forum, there seems to be a quasi-consensus that women are, in general, more accepting of crossdressing than men are. You work in an all-girl office? You've never felt comfortable enough with any of your colleagues to discuss this, perhaps even in general terms? Well, at least I'm glad to hear that your wife seems accepting of this side of you; there are many who aren't that fortunate.

Charlene, I'm curious: what type of things do you say or do? Let's compare notes.

Love,
CJ

I was given a couple of gel hot/cold packs at work last week and I told one of the guys I work with that i finally got my breast implants. He sure looked confused.

CJ, to answer your question:It's a shame you don't think you could ever find acceptance in your workplace. Are you sure that's the case, Nancy?
Well, lests just say my Boss goes to church and is close friends with my mother-in-law and two of my other coworkers are also members of that same church. No the dreams that I keep in my mind of me one day working dressed as a woman will have to be enough. I would only come out all the way if I were going to dress full time and I could no longer live with my wife. One of the major issues is my wife will not live with another woman.

Hi all,

Okay, here's an update. And it's got me worried and not a little bit paranoid.

Whenever one of the staff reaches ten years of continuous service at the organization I work for, we throw a bash for him and have a lot of fun "roasting" him (à la Dean Martin, but with skits and crazy gifts). He also receives a $1,000 cash bonus.
Well, anyway, it was one of my female colleagues' "tenth" a couple of years ago and we came up with an original gift , amongst many others: a calendar where each of her male colleagues posed nude (yes, there was some artful concealment, though--in my case I "hid" behind a small philosophy book...well, not that small ), one colleague for each month of the year. There are thirteen women and thirteen men where I work--the boss, partially clothed, made the back cover of the calendar. It was a blast to make and she just loved the gift.

Now here's what's got me slightly worried. There's another "tenth" coming up for one of my male colleagues later this year. This particular colleague had told us, at the "calendar" party a couple of years ago, that it was his wish that he also receive such a calendar for his own "tenth," but, of course, with the women posing this time. Well, people are now bandying about the suggestion that we do such a calendar, but with this twist: no women involved--rather, all us guys (except for him, of course) would pose as women! Egad! Now, I've got my panties in a twist over this. The plans are already becoming more concrete (discussions of costumes, etc.). What should I do? What should I do?

This is what has got me slightly paranoid: I know for a fact that some, if not most or all, of my colleagues know (or strongly suspect) that I'm a crossdresser. Is this, then, a strategy they've developed to force me to come out of my shell a little more quickly? If so, I'd resent that. Okay, so I know that they'd more than likely accept or, at the very least, not be overly bothered with this side of me. Still. I hate being put in this kind of position. If I refuse to participate, they'll know something's up. Yet, I'm afraid that, if I do participate, they'll use the opportunity to out me, disregarding my need to do this at my own pace.

What should I do? Input, please.

Love,
Cornered Christina

Hi, I 'm not sure that it is directed at you, per se. If you were singled out, I think it would be different. I think your workplace is "fun" and a little "wacky" (Even your Boss got into the nude calendar bit). If everyone is in on the joke, then the idea to have the men "dress" as women, is just a part of the fun and wackyness. The question becomes are you going to do it the best you can or as a man dressing up. If most of the people in your office "have the thought" that you are a CD and are currently OK with it, consider going for broke! Let us know what you are going to do.

Hi Christina. Hmmmm, just a thought I had; Who among your collegues came up with this idea? Is it possible there could be more than one CD at your office? About the calendar, if you feel insecure about the possibility of being outed to all and sundry, as you do seem to be (and as I probably would be too), then the "when in Rome" ploy would seem to be the best policy. You know the difference between a presentation well done and the "bloke in a dress" that you suspect most are considering. Can you not also carry off the joke without letting yourself do the job right, as Nancy alluded too?

Hey, you could up the ante. One of your clients might "mention" a transformation service in an interview or some other pretext (I assume there are some in your area), and you could suggest that each of the participants let a professional help out and see where that leads, (though the more I think of it you might feel uneasy being the instigator). However, the cost of a transformation should be too much for most for just a joke, and the scale that is intended should become clear. Then again, a ready consideration of the suggestion (or on the other hand a show of foot dragging) by one or more of your collegues might indicate there is indeed more than one CD in the room. Just some thoughts. I might be tempted to try those options, though in our office and current social climate, the possibility would not come up. Some of our oversight people would likely fear possible sexual harrassment suit by somebody not wanting to do the calendar, and say "NO"!. In which case, our boss would slink away and that would be that. No sense of fun a'tall.

CJ, as long as there seems to be some time before this really happens why not plan to do it both ways. As a guy in drag and as a class act? Are there props or background settings in these pictures that may help you to plan how best to dress? How about if you suggest that for each month the person poses in a costume that has something to do with the month the person is posing for, or as a fem super hero or try to impersonate one of the girls favorite heroines?

One thing I think we all tend to do is read more into the situation than is really there. We are to close to it and we know of to many things that can go south or wrong. We have to learn to feel out the spirit of how it is intended and if need be take leads from others that are not into all of this as we are.

Something like this should be fun and probably should be delt with in much the same mannor as you did in making the other calander.

How many times I have heard girls talk about their experineces after they dressed to the nines and went out on Halloween just to find out that some people thought they looked and acted to comfortable in fem for it to be a one time thing.

I don't know, maybe play dumb and ask one of the other guys that will be posing to help you or maybe get one of the married guys wives or gril friends to help you too.

But this should be a fun thing let it be and enjoy it.

Hey Christina,
I think your workplace is cool I wish my coworkers were a little more relaxed. My opinion is simply to go with the flow. If most or all of them have no objection to doing a cross-dressed calender, then go for it!
(of course it's easier for me to tell someone else what to do...if I were in the same situation, i'd probably chicken out. :!: )
Interesting enough, Last weekend i had my ears pierced. (Something I have wanted to do for years, but didn't have the guts.)Monday morning was quite a shock to my coworkers. The boss even asked if I was going through a mid-life crisis : They'll just have to get used to it

Good luck with whichever choice you make!

Kyra

Hi CJ--
I am happy to hear that you can bring in your real self from all different angles at work, without really having to come out before you want to do it That's just great.

The calender idea would bother me, too. It's not a fun position for you to be in, even if the idea itself is meant to be fun. Everyone else will approach it as slapstick, because they're amateurs with little to lose. Being a "pro" in that situation will not feel good, and I think you'd feel that way even if everyone knew you were a CD.

We CDs are all artists, to some degree. I've seen your pictures, CJ, and you're going to be Monet, while the other guys draw stick figures. There's no fun in outclassing everyone like that.

So what to do? Declining doesn't feel good, since everyone at work knows that you do enjoy playing around with your appearance. Whether they suspect or not, they know THAT much about you, right?

I'll just have to be you for a moment. (Anita pauses, closes her eyes, puts her hand to her temple). OK. I think I would use my artistry to be a very entertaining guy-in-a-dress. I would take the whole thing up to another level. Show them that you know how to do slapstick, but in style!

They already know you're good at changing your appearance, and that you have style sense. Play the game at their level, and add your own spice to it.
Then I think it will truly be fun for you.

Hope this helps!
Anita

Hi all,

Wow! Thanks for the wonderful replies. You girls rock!

Hmmm. Another CD in the room? I hadn't considered that. Now that I think about it, though, the person who suggested this has, indeed, done the "bloke in a dress" routine at least once in the past couple of years. He's also the one who keeps throwing (admittedly gentle) crossdressing barbs my way (as in, "Gee, I'd bet you'd look good in that dress," etc., etc.). Something to ponder, eh? Still, that changes nothing to the situation.

I went to a restaurant with an ex-GF earlier tonight and I laid it all out to her. Not only does she know my colleagues (up until about three years ago, she used to work there too), but she'd even been, for a couple of years, in a relationship with the one who suggested this "crossdressed calendar" (oh, and the answer is: yes, we all get along fine ). She thinks I'm being overly sensitive because of my strong desire for privacy (or "secrecy," as she calls it). By the way, I've asked her this and she swears she's never told anyone at my workplace about my crossdressing. I believe her. Her take on it is this: if, as I suspect, my CDing is an "open secret" at work, then I should actually use this opportunity to come out with a bang, by "fe-maling" for that camera to the best of my abilities and as authentically as I humanly can. I'll admit the prospect is daunting and nerve-wracking, but strangely exhilirating too. Still, I'm ambivalent.

There's a part of me (the rationalizing part, I guess) that keeps coming up with good reasons for me not to do this calendar. Chief among them is that I just don't like the idea of being put in a position where I could be made to reveal details of my sex life (yes, my CDing is part of my sex life) to colleagues without any kind of tit-for-tat reciprocity. I know it sounds childish, but it's there. Also, I wouldn't want their attitude towards me to change merely because they know this aspect of my private life, my life away from the workplace. As long as I'm in the process of slowly and gradually coming out to my colleagues, I feel that I'm in control of the whole thing, to some extent. The possible pitfalls of doing this calendar rob me of that, I think. My ex-GF, on the other hand, believes I too easily discount the possible boons. She may be right. She doesn't need to list them--I know what they are.

I'm softening up a little on this. Earlier today, I was talking with the only one of my colleagues to whom I've very strongly suggested (without flat out admitting) that I was a crossdresser. We were discussing laser hair removal costs, of all things (she's currently getting her legs done). When I told her I knew someone who was getting LHR on his face, she point-blank asked me, "Is she a transsexual or a transvestite?" Well! That took the discussion in a whole different direction! I found out that she'd had a TS as a roommate for more than a year back in the 90s. Her obvious familiarity with TG issues, themes, and people immediately put me at ease. Later on, I started thinking that maybe, just maybe, I'm simply making a mountain out of a molehill with this whole calendar thing.

I often tell people, "just feel the fear and do it anyway!" Perhaps it's time I took my own advice, eh? Well, again, thanks for the encouragement, all of you. It's been a great help. I'll keep you posted.

Love,
Christina

Hi CJ. Good luck with this one. While it may seem threatening, there is a potential for some good fun too. From what you say about your work place, it seems to be a positve, and rather nurturing, environment. I do envy you that.

I have been looking at the feasibility of coming out at work and to selected family and friends over the next year. So over the last 8 months I have been using opportunities (calling attention to news stories, programs on TLC and Discover, etc) to evaluate attitudes toward and knowledge of TGs (in the all inclusive sense), and such issues in the news as gay marriage as a measure of their acceptance of differences. It has been a sobering experience. Remember, I have known most of these people for in excess of 30 years, and they have known or come to expect certain behaviors from me over this time.

As a result of this excercise, I now estimate I will be saying goodbye to at least 90% of the people I have considered old friends. A few may become overtly hostile, most will consider this a choice, feel hurt perhaps and confused, and rather than outright hostility, will simply decrease social contact to zero. One of these is in daily contact with lesbian neighbors with whom he and his wife have a good, neighborly relationship. Gays he seems to understand and have no problem with. People like me he thinks are "...just too weird, but whatever floats their boat". He can't understand why men would want to change their physical sex, considering it a choice not a need, yet he can accept gays (who also do not have a choice in who turns them on- go figure). One is a newly "born again" and is enthusiastic in her new found beliefs. It is a conservative group; guess what her comments are like? Another female coworker has been a good friend for many years as well. She would consider an announcement from me as slightly amusing, but would accept it, her husband, also a long time friend, would not. One good friend, a man I have considered as almost the younger brother I never had, will not understand or accept, no way, no how. Violence, to the degree of a good punching out, might be the first reaction in a face to face announcement. Rejection would be the next. And the list goes on. I am finding that what I am learning is already affecting my relationship with most of these people, and I find myself withdrawing and trying to prepare myself for severed contact, premature though that may be.

Among my extended family of 20+ people (including sister, cousins, niece and nephew), one or maybe two will likely be willing to maintain contact with me (but goodbye family get-to-gathers and reunions--their in-laws who are always included will not be accepting at all), and at least five of these direct relatives (conservative Christian) will consider me an abomination. I had already discounted them, but the others are a surprise as their attitudes on other social/political questions are (at least in the abstract) relatively liberal. I say in the abstract, as most are not in direct contact with coworkers who are gay, and most not even in contact with African Americans or others they consider minorities (but there is a inter-racial marriage on the affinal side). The guys support the notion of equal pay for equal work (in regards to women's issues) but not in their line of work because the "gals just can't handle it". So I guess the word should have been hypocritical rather than abstract.

I have been pursuing a sort of gradual coming out, so to speak, though actually it has been more of an effort to keep my spirits up. Over the last year+, I have let my hair grow out, and I have been following skin care regimen and my fingernails are longer than they have ever been, and neatly cared for, and I have been getting my weight back under control. These items have been noticed by the females in the office, of course, and recently commented on. One asked directly why I was letting my hair grow. I had a sort of ready excuse, but it sounded weak to me when I said it, and I am not sure if it was really effective. No, I can read her face pretty well, and though she let it go, she did not believe it. Over the last few weeks, I have read posts on another board offering advice to TSs that are trying to come out in advance of being ready for their RLT, and apparently most consider it best NOT to do the gradual changes bit, or to be very selective (ie. Fingernails OK but not real long; hair not OK since that is too visible; androgenous clothing, be very discrete; so called underdressing, discrete to your situation, for example).

I need to work at least two more years before I can take early retirement, and it begins to look as though I will not be able to "come out" before then. Actually, I knew that because of our mostly conservative client base, so that's really nothing new. The loss of friends and family, I had considered, intellectually, but now having heard their prejudices and lack of knowledge in their own words, the enormity of what I am going to have to do, one way or another, is more of a reality and more than a bit daunting. How DO you start all over after a lifetime? Not just in the economic arena, but in terms of lost social relationships?

Hi all,

Carolynn,

What a hearfelt and very moving post. Thanks.

There are many points I'd like to address in what you've so beautifully expressed, but I'll stick to what I think are the main two.

As you said, Carolynn, after so many years, friends, colleagues, and sundry acquaintances have come to expect certain behaviours from you. Even (or, perhaps, especially) behaviours that are at odds with how you really feel about yourself, or with how you really wish to be in the world. We're creatures of habit, always seeking certainty and stability. As such we have this love affair with inference; because the sun has always come up before, we figure it'll come up tomorrow. However, that's not necessarily the case (well, not logically so, anyway). So, we continue in this "existential dissonance" (for lack of a better expression), in order not to violate that stability. But at what price?

Now, this is something you have to weigh; on the one hand, you can continue to "stifle your selfhood" for the sake avoiding embarrassment and discomfort to those around you (thus preserving the status quo at the expense of your own well-being) or, on the other hand, you can embrace who you are, and accept the possible losses this implies. It's not an easy choice to make. From what you've written, though, I'm thinking you're already leaning in a certain direction. Go at your own pace and be steadfast.

The other point concerns the last sentence of your post. Are you sure that you'd be starting over? Maybe you're not giving your friends and colleagues enough credit. True, people don't change that much. But their views do. As someone who doesn't take any special measures to hide this from those close to me, I have to say that I'm often surprised to discover positive (or, at worst, indifferent) reactions where I expected only negative ones to my CDing. What happens is this: friends will say, "crossdressers are just too weird" but then, when they find out that, say, Chuck, their longtime colleague, is a crossdresser, they often revise their opinions. "Huh? Chuck's a crossdresser? How can that be? There isn't a weird bone in his body?" In my own experience, bemused puzzlement, not rejection, is usually the first reaction. Gradually, people start rethinking their views on people who are different because they now have first-hand knowledge of a person who is (and yet isn't) different. Then again, Carolynn, you'd be the best judge of that also; you know these people better than we do. Aaah, decisions, decisions. I wish you courage and strength, girl, in your quest to become who you are. May you find a way to keep both your friends and your mental health!

Love,
Christina