The Great Bra Debate

[Jamie Ann]

Hi Val,

Here is still another link that might help.

http://www.fredericks.com/services/help.asp?81


Hugs,
Wendy

JCPenny probably sells more bras than all other vendors combined. They too give instructions on how to find your bra size: Bra Fitting. If you click this link, you will see that JCPenny recommends getting your band size by measuring above where bra cups would fall, but I think it is more accurate to measure around your lower rib cage, as Sharon (SO)'s directions recommend. (The choice probably does not matter much for many people.)

I do not mean to be too critical, but if you are a CD, you must recognize that such instructions are for genetic females, not for genetic males. Discovering your cup size is not a meaningful problem for a genetic male — you choose your cup size, then buy a bra to fit the cup size you have chosen. To speak about discovering your bra size, as women might wish to do, is surreal. It is like talking about a genetic woman ascertaining her penis size — it is a fantasy exercise! As Sharon (SO) noted, you get your band size (38 or whatever) by measuring your chest below your pectoralis muscles (breasts), and then you choose whatever cup size you want. After that, you buy breast enhancements to fill whatever size you have chosen (which ideally should be guided by some consideration of what hips-waist-bust ratios a genetic woman of your height and weight is likely to have).

[Jamie Ann]

Hi Jamie Ann,

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Hugs,
Wendy

Hi Wendy,

I seem to have gotten myself into a debate I did not really want, but let me try to respond to your questions.

JCPenny probably sells more bras than all other vendors combined? Do you have any data to back that up?

JCPenny is a Fortune 500 company. If you really believe my claim is false, I will search for industry statistics, but I assure you that JCPenny is a much larger vendor than Fredericks of Hollywood or any other of the companies cited in this thread. My point, of course, was that Val is right. There is disagreement on the best way to measure for bra size. JCPenny recommends estimating band size by measuring over the breast area, which I believe would be misleading for many men, whose shoulders and back muscles would make this estimate too large. For most women, with their narrower shoulders, this approach might be satisfactory.

To speak about discovering your bra size, as women might wish to do, is surreal. It is like talking about a genetic woman ascertaining her penis size — it is a fantasy exercise! Would this be a true statement if that same woman desired to wear a jock strap??

Yes, it would. If a woman were considering wearing a fake penis, she would not reasonably estimate her penis size by using some simple formula designed for men. Rather, she would choose her simulated penis from a vendor, and use the size of that device. Trying to estimate the size of a penis she does not have would be wrong-headed.

I do not mean to be too critical, but if you are a CD, you must recognize that such instructions are for genetic females, not for genetic males. It seems to me that any of the tips concerning woman's apparel, make-up, hair or any other beauty products are intended for real woman. Does that mean that they can not also be helpful to men??

There is no good answer to all the questions that are subsumed under your general question. Books on makeup written for women apply just as well to men, because there are no important difference between women and men in the techniques for using makeup. I use Kevyn Aucoin’s books, which were written for women, and find them very helpful. But in other areas where men’s and women’s bodies differ, I do not think that we can blindly use algorithms designed for women as if they apply to genetic women and CD’s exactly the same. I am not trying to tell anyone else what to do, but my own appearance is more feminine if I de-emphasize chest size, and try to increase hip size through appropriate padding. If I followed the rules implied by algorithms designed for genetic women, I would look like a caricature of a “porn star,” with too large a chest and a disproportionately small waist and (even more so) strikingly skinny hips. Obviously, you are a very attractive person, who has mastered the challenges of making an attractive presentation of femininity. I was directing my remarks mostly to our sisters who may not have thought through the issues of making a nice feminine presentation as completely as you have.


Hugs,
Jamie Ann

[Wendy Seymone]

Jamie Ann,

I totally agree that JC Penny is a very profitable company.

J.C. Penney Company, Inc. (JCP) is one of America's largest department store, catalog, and e-commerce retailers. In a month that had many retailers struggling, J.C. Penny bucked the trend by reporting a same department store sales rise of +4.8% for June. The company stated that sales reflected a good customer response to planned Father's Day marketing events. Furthermore, J.C. Penney said operating profit for the second quarter is tracking above previous guidance. The company will not report its fiscal second quarter numbers until August 17th, but decided to raise its earnings guidance for the quarter to between 9 cents and 13 cents per share, which compares to a loss of (3 cents) last year. Looking back to its fiscal first quarter, J.C. Penny reported earnings from continuing operations of 38 cents per share, which was better than the consensus by almost +12%. Earnings estimates for the year ending January 2005 are up 28 cents, or approximately +16%, over the past three months, including a rise of 4 cents, or about +2%, in the past 30 trading days. J.C. Penney is one of the best known retailers in the country, and appears to have a lot of running room for the future.


How much of their earnings can be attributed directly to bra sales is open to debate.

Here is a 1999 article on Victoria Secret's catalog sales.

Victoria reveals her secrets
by Paul Miller

Victoria's Secret catalog president/CEO Cindy Fields has helped to nearly double the company's catalog sales, from $436 million in 1993 to $760 million in '98. But despite the apparel marketer's rapid expansion, Fields insists it "has much more potential" for even greater growth; in fact, her goal is $1 billion in annual catalog sales by 2004.

Paradoxically, as part of its growth plans, last August the catalog reduced its circulation for the first time ever, mailing 30% fewer catalogs for the second half of '98 than originally planned (see "Slash-and save," December 1998 issue). By discontinuingits City apparel book and mailing fewer editions of its core lingerie/apparel catalog, Victoria's Secret was able to add pages to its highly productive core book and still cut production and mailing costs 10%. To further hone its circulation strategy, late last year the company hired Fred Burns away from database consultancy Kestnbaum & Co. to serve as director of database marketing.

The changes have boosted response and increased sales per page more than 10%, Fields claims. So while the catalog division had expected a 10% sales decline following the slash in circulation, revenue for the fourth quarter actually fell only 9%. More important, the catalog expects to report a fourth-quarter operating margin well ahead of last year's.

For '99 and beyond, "an increase in our average order size is our goal," Fields says-key for meeting its $1 billion sales goal.

Merchandising and advertising Sharper circulation management isn't the only secret behind the improved margin. The cataloger is refining its merchandising mix too-increasing its line of bras, for instance. The profit margins of bras are 3-5 percentage points higher than those of other lingerie items, according to Fields, and they have fewer returns than other clothing items. What's more, bras "are absolutely what Victoria's Secret is best known for," says Fields, who hopes to double the bra sales over the next five years.

"We have a huge opportunity to capture the 'everyday bra' business," Fields says. "For instance, you'd be hard-pressed to find wireless bras in our catalog or our stores. So we have opportunities to expand into the no-wire bra business."

The company's two-year-old ad program closely aligning the catalog with the retail chain is boosting catalog sales-or at least the catalog's profile-as well. Not only do most of the TV commercials post the catalog's 800-number, but they also show models in the same poses used on the catalog covers. "It was obvious and fundamental, but we weren't doing it before," Fields says.

While Richard Jaffee, research analyst with New York-based Paine Webber, says "you can't quantify" the results of the ad campaign on catalog sales, "the recognition rate is enormously high. You almost have to think of the stores and the catalog as one entity, something other retail/catalogers don't do as effectively. And the dollars flow both ways. The catalog generates store traffic," while the stores help to promote the catalog.

You can also view their basic store facts at...
http://limitedbrands.com/about/vs/vss/index.jsp


I provided the bra sizing instructions from the Frederick's website not only because I thought that the 4 steps ( with pictures ) would be easy to follow, but also because there are other sizing and conversion charts on there that might be helpful.

If you do not feel this is the proper sizing technic for you to use, then don't use it.

If a girl is having that much trouble finding the correct size bra, she may consider glueing on her breastforms and going in and getting fitted. Most lingerie shops provide this service free of charge.

Hugs,
Wendy

[Jamie Ann]

I provided the bra sizing instructions from the Frederick's website not only because I thought that the 4 steps ( with pictures ) would be easy to follow, but also because there are other sizing and conversion charts on there that might be helpful.

If you do not feel this is the proper sizing technic for you to use, then don't use it.

I would not use it, and I think others would be wise to make the same decision. Your Fredericks of Hollywood instructions illustrate very nicely the problems with relying upon simple algorithms. Consider Step 2 from the FOH procedure:

Step 2:
Calculate Your BAND SIZE
If MEASUREMENT 1 is UNDER 33 inches, add 5 inches. If this number is odd, round up to the next EVEN number.

If MEASUREMENT 1 is OVER 33 inches, add 3 inches. If this number is odd, round up to the next EVEN number.

Write this EVEN number down. This is your BAND SIZE.

Good grief! If someone had a 32.9 inch chest, they would add 5 inches and decide that they needed a size 38 bra (of whatever cup size). On the other hand, someone with a 33.1 inch chest would add 3 inches and decide that they probably should opt for a size 36 bra. The person with the larger chest would be buying the smaller bra!

The fact is, a CD’s bra size is going to be slightly smaller than the chest measurement they would use in buying a men’s sportcoat. (Bras typically have three sets of hooks, allowing you to make the fit slightly larger or slightly smaller, so you do have some margin for error.) If your chest size at the largest point is (say) 40", you could probably get along quite nicely with a 38 bra. The proper cup size, of course, depends on how much flesh you will be putting into the cups, including any “silicon flesh.” If you have (say) “B” breast forms and some flesh of your own in your breast area, a C-cup would be a reasonable choice, because the forms essentially are adding to what you already have.