Self Loathing

[Anne Bonny]

Hum... If you are trans I have heard that the pretty clothing is just that clothing. That transitioning brings relief because your body is now in sinc with your mind - you are no longer "trapped in the wrong body" as I understand what I have read of this. There are some minor changes I might make nail polish, long natural nails, shaving legs, losing weight, allowing hair to grow longer, plucking eyebrows, make up.

Stepping out into public, finding a job and living openly is a step.

Piercing ears is a step beyond this, Permanent make up - yeah that's a definite step. hormones to develop softer skin, some change in where body fat is deposited, perhaps more development of breasts.

Then castration, implants of an average apporpriate size for a woman of your size, pinectomy and vaginoplasty. Yep those are very definite changes are they ever right for all of us?

I think of this as a progression still we would only be T girls, not genetic. Real genetic women are something we can never be no matter what we do - perhaps if a uterus, felopian tubes and ovaries can be transplanted and apporpriate changes made to our pelvic bones to allow us to give birth. but Our brain structure is still that of a male basically, unless that too changes in time??

I have seen facial reconstruction to feminize the face, Not sure what can be done to the delicate vocal cords but hear that is a dicy proceedure.

If this makes you happy - go for it! but if it is not right I think being satisfied with a lower level along this spectrum is perfectly fine. We are all different and I hope you find happiness be that full transition. Anne

[Wendae]

Anne...

Who wants to dress around those who do not approve or fully accept you for who you are.

While I do dress at home my wife is not a fan and unless I'm in crisis mode I wait until she goes shopping or I have an appointment. It is an uncomfortable feeling. We have a strange relationship. She gives clothes, makeup, and jewelery. We can shop together(I have to be in semi-drab). We do our laundry together but she will not go out with me enfem or stay in the same room with me.

[Cassandra Lynn]

That transitioning brings relief because your body is now in sinc with your mind - you are no longer "trapped in the wrong body" as I understand what I have read of this.

Piercing ears is a step beyond this,

I think of this as a progression still we would only be T girls, not genetic. Real genetic women are something we can never be no matter what we do - perhaps if a uterus, felopian tubes and ovaries can be transplanted and appropriate changes made to our pelvic bones to allow us to give birth. but Our brain structure is still that of a male basically, unless that too changes in time??

Please don't be offended Anne but i'm curious, so i noted a few things, just wondering where your coming from exactly.

I've spent quite alot of time reading about our transsexual sisters and while i'm no expert i can say that most all of them will tell you that it is, in fact, their brains that are not in sync with the genitals they inherited.
To be more precise most all of them were in fact born with the mind/brain of a female. By that way of thinking your 2 separate comments are contradicting.

You, of course, are certainly entitled to feel however you want about it, but i'd keep that part about never being a real woman to yourself, TS folks will definitely tell you differently. In fact, once all the necessary operations take place they do legally become female.

I also took the liberty to quote the ear piercing comment too, i am just wondering what the piercing of ones ears has to do with gender? Men of all persuasions, flavors and orientations are wearing ear adornments these days.

You seem to be one of those folks who is bent on fitting all of us into your mold of what you call a 'crossdresser', and more power to you, but please keep in mind that this is a forum that deals with all facets of the gender spectrum (by the by, have you ever read wikipedia's definition of transgender?).

Making random generalizations and stereotyping does none of us any favors.

[Karin]

*pulls up in SL's big pink tank and really hopes she doesnt notice the scrapes on the back end that I got trying to get out of maccies...

Ooooooooh! Did somebody just fire off a shiny metallic pink SS12 intercontinental ballistic missile?

Ummm. When the dust has settled I think I'd like to add... Yes, clothes are just clothes I wear them because I'd be cold if I didn't. My ears are pierced too if that matters.. I feel that by making whatever mods to the crate I drive, I'm moving it towards what I feel I should be in. As to whether or not people see me as a girl? I know I am, so at this point I have do what I have to do. If others don't see it, I pity their disability. If in however many years, as a post op I find regret it, it won't be because of this realignment, moreso because of society not seeing me how I do. That's what I understand most reversers say? .

Anyway, the original question!! I'm going to answer it myself hahahaha. A much higher percentage of people with gender issues (from anywhere on the spectrum) suffer from self loathing, than those without gender issues. There I said it.

So how many of you do it to escape reality then?? Buahahahaha

[Kimberly Kael]

Hum... If you are trans I have heard that the pretty clothing is just that clothing.

You've managed to include an incredible range of generalizations in a single post. I'll try to address what feel like the most egregious from my perspective. To start with, the transgender spectrum is pretty broad. Most definitions include cross-dressing as an aspect of transgender behavior, for fairly obvious reasons. If you mean transsexual, and you're referring to someone post-transition ... then the answer is still a resounding no.

Clothing is many things to many people. Even someone assigned female from birth can find self confidence, validation of her sexual appeal, a canvas for self-expression, or the fulfillment of a dream in clothing. Sure, protection from the elements and conformance with social norms is a factor and may even be the dominant factor, but try telling a woman on her wedding day that her dress doesn't hold any special meaning. Good luck with that.

What can change is the overtone of fear, guilt, and the adrenaline rush associated with dressing in a manner that we think the rest of society won't approve of. Starting out closeted is a shared experience for a reason, and with time, experience, and confidence that aspect can fade away.

That transitioning brings relief because your body is now in sinc with your mind - you are no longer "trapped in the wrong body" as I understand what I have read of this.

That's a phrase a lot of transsexuals use early in their transition, and then cringe at later on. It's an evocative oversimplification. When transitioning does bring relief it's usually an array of different factors lining up, eliminating the constant stress of trying to fit into a role that feels wrong in a thousand hard to define ways. The potential for physical transformation, which you've emphasized heavily, is only a part of the picture. Arguably it was traditionally necessary because eliminating telltale signs of your originally assigned sex could mean the difference between getting a job and living on the fringes of society, and the divide between being in a fulfilling relationship and being murdered by someone you love because of who you are.

I don't think we'll really know how important the physical aspects are until the risk associated with living any other way is gone. Then we'll probably discover that they vary from individual to individual.

Yep those are very definite changes are they ever right for all of us?

Nobody can tell you for certain what's right for you, and conversely you cannot state with any authority what is right for anyone else. To each their own. One of the important things about this community and others like it is the ability to interact with people who cover a wide range of experiences in order to find our own path.

I think of this as a progression still we would only be T girls, not genetic. Real genetic women are something we can never be no matter what we do...

Your definition of a "real" woman is entirely arbitrary. There is enormous variation among individuals resulting from genetics (including intersex conditions), to developmental influences (many of which are still poorly understood at best), to socialization. All this makes a mockery of a nice, neat binary view of sexuality – and arguably gender is even more complicated. The most significant barrier to a trans woman isn't a laundry list of surgery and medication. It's self acceptance. It's understanding that not all women give birth. That a infertility or a even a hysterectomy doesn't change who they are. That not all women are shaped the same. That not every woman has a high-pitched, lilting voice. The most compelling thing women have in common is the unshakable belief that they are women.

[Karin]

WOW Kimberly!!

That was simply awesome......

[SilverLady(SO)]

*pulls up in SL's big pink tank and really hopes she doesnt notice the scrapes on the back end that I got trying to get out of maccies...

::Hmph::

Silly girl, of course I noticed . . . even though you tried really hard to cover it up with all those overflowing Macy's bags randomly attached to my tank.

Okay, girlfriend, take it to the nearest Army Tank Repair Service for a complete buff and polish, and do be a bit more careful next time you take it out for a spin.

Now please behave yourself . . . I've got to get back to my . . . I have too many projects to get done for my customers, all of whom want them in time for Christmas.



Now for my $0.02 contribution to the main topic: I agree with Kimberly Kael's post, above. Karin, do what you feel is best for you, and you alone. After all, you're the one who must live with whatever decision you make. Just remember that you only live once, and everyone deserves to be happy on this "trip around the sun" (as my Virginia would say).


- SL

[Anthony Simon]

I confess to really feeling a discontinuity between were I am and were Karin is. I mean that's my instinctive response to her original post. This is kind of interesting because of the title of the thread: "self-loathing".

I don't like the word "loathe". Mostly because, if you're on the receiving end - like someone loathing you - they see you as The Enemy. At least that's my response to it, they've made you into someone other and antagonistic to them.

So, if it's self-loathing, then you see some part of you as The Enemy. Which is a hell of a trap to be in. With Karin, as I read her posts, she sees her physical male elements as this enemy - The solution being to go through physical procedures to remove them.

As far as I know there is a substantial proportion of MTF TS's who feel like that - like loathe, particularly, their male genitals. That's just my impression from watching documentaries - so this is the first time I'm actually talking to someone like this.

The problem for me is that, from the point of view of people loathing me - the idea of someone loathing themselves always makes me feel "I would never do that". Just because it's so horrible being on the receiving end of someone loathing you.

[Amanda M]

Self-loathing? Guilt? Shame? Envy?

They are all part of the same package, and are all based on the same premises of "should", "must", "please others", "must conform" that all of us are brought up to believe.

The great and wonderful thing is that all of those negative feelings are based on one simple thing - FEAR! What happens if I am different? People will hate me, I'll go to Hell, I'll be isolated and lonely and so on, and on and on. Think about the word FEAR, and look at how we spell it. F..E..A..R..!

Then look at it this way - a False Expectation Appearing Real! And that is exactly what it is.

Now, I’m going to suggest that you would benefit from some Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Not because there is anything wrong with you, but because your current way of thinking is hurting you.

CBT is based on the fact that what we think in any given situation generates beliefs about, and reactions to that situation, and also causes the behaviour and feelings which flow from those beliefs and reactions.

These ‘automatic thoughts’ are so fast that generally, we are unaware that we have even had them. We call them ANTS (automatic negative thoughts) for short.

If the pattern of thinking we use, or our beliefs about our situation are even slightly distorted,
the resulting emotions and actions that flow from them can be extremely negative and unhelpful. The object of CBT is to identify these ‘automatic thoughts’ then to re-adjust our thoughts and beliefs so that they are entirely realistic and correspond to the realities of our lives, and that therefore, the resulting emotions, feelings and actions we have will be more useful and helpful.

Cognitive therapists do not usually interpret or seek for unconscious motivations but bring cognitions and beliefs into the current focus of attention and through guided discovery encourage clients to gently re-evaluate their thinking.

Therapy is not seen as something “done to” the client. CBT is not about trying to prove a client wrong and the therapist right, or getting into unhelpful debates. Through collaboration, questioning and re-evaluating their views, clients come to see for themselves that there are alternatives and that they can change.

Clients try things out in between therapy sessions, putting what has been learned into practice, learning how therapy translates into real life improvement.

Please visit this website for much more detailed information on CBT:
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthin ... s/cbt.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you cannot afford to see a therapist, there are good free CBT based self-help resources here:
http://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/cbtstep1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, there is a book called ”Feeling good - the new mood therapy” by Dr. David Burns. It has a hand book which gives you practical exercises to work through and further instructions on how to better use CBT. I really do recommend it.
Cognitive Behavioural Therapy Workbook for Dummies By Rhena Branch, Rob Willson is also pretty good.

Best, Amanda
(and for what it's worth, Adv. Dip. MNRHP(UK). ECP, Registered Psychotherapist, United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy

[Kimberly Kael]

I confess to really feeling a discontinuity between were I am and were Karin is. I mean that's my instinctive response to her original post. This is kind of interesting because of the title of the thread: "self-loathing".

It's a pretty strong sentiment, you're quite right, and I don't know that anything quite so powerful is true for most of the trans spectrum. I do think the vast majority suffer from a lack of self esteem. Many do find a boost in confidence through physical alterations of one kind or another, but that's never going to address the heart of the matter. To believe in their own self worth most people need to believe they deserve to be accepted, respected, valued, and loved. Easier said than done, of course, and certainly we're not the only community that faces challenges in these areas.

Acceptance is getting easier as our culture better understands that transgender leanings are part of the normal range of human experience, traits that don't preclude being a productive member of society. I didn't transition until I had a healthy measure of self-acceptance, and I found most people content to mirror my acceptance with their own.

Respect is more subtle in some ways. I think the way in which we present our cross-gender characteristics has a lot to do with earning respect. Showing awareness and consideration for others helps. As does being straightforward and honest. Having the courage to stand up for yourself also makes a difference. If you can honestly say to yourself that you did your best, doing the "right thing" wherever possible, it's easier to earn your own respect as well as that of others. It's easy to assert self-acceptance at others' expense, but this is where you'll get blowback that undermines the progress you were trying to make.

Staying gainfully employed makes feeling valued easier, but there are other measures as well. Being there for your children's needs counts, as does volunteering for a cause you believe in. Believing you're contributing positively to the world is a key element of self-esteem.

Knowing that you are worthy of love is easy when there's someone who tells you every day, but it's also possible without a committed relationship. Lack of support from family is one of the biggest challenges for the trans community in this respect.

[Karin]

Thankyou so much Amanda,

Thats some really interesting reading right there. I would say the self loathing part was the biggest issue i had. Guilt or shame? I cant honestly admit to ever having suffered that hahaha, ive always kinda just done what i like, im a bit of a bonehead that way..
Envy? yes...definitely envious of GG and also some Trans hahaha..

The thing is, I DID suffer serious self loathing until about a year ago. It seems the further Karin progresses, the less that is. The more my HRT works, the happier i am. From what i think you said, this therapy helps people to re-evaluate and in a kind of way 'rewind a bit and look again?' If thats correct, then i would ask if its really for me, because i can honestly say that i'm more relaxed and settled now than i have ever been in my life. I have more friends than i ever had before, and i've thought about this a lot...I'm happier than i've ever been in my life. And each step i take increases this feeling. The fires have gone out, and life is good. A year ago, i think i could definately have benefitted from it as i was in a very dark place, but in the here and now, I'm not so sure i want to re-evaluate if that makes sense? Sure theres things ahead, that are a bit of a worry, of course there are. That doesnt mean itll all be bad either tho?

Still, that said id like to look into it some more, and keep this info at the ready...just in case lol. And maybe possibly even hit your PM? heehee

Thanks again Amanda........

[Anthony Simon]

I confess to really feeling a discontinuity between were I am and were Karin is. I mean that's my instinctive response to her original post. This is kind of interesting because of the title of the thread: "self-loathing".

It's a pretty strong sentiment, you're quite right, and I don't know that anything quite so powerful is true for most of the trans spectrum.

Well, there were two examples in my mind, both from TV documentaries. One, from a while ago, was of a TS who had kind of "daggers in her eyes" - that kind of sentiment - towards her male genitals. It really scared the living daylights out of me. The other was from a recent UK doc., "My Transsexual Summer" where they did actually have footage of the physical procedure. There the sentiment seemed less intense, but I felt it was basically the same thing. I read Karin as being somewhere in that spectrum.

I do think the vast majority suffer from a lack of self esteem. Many do find a boost in confidence through physical alterations of one kind or another, but that's never going to address the heart of the matter. To believe in their own self worth most people need to believe they deserve to be accepted, respected, valued, and loved. Easier said than done, of course, and certainly we're not the only community that faces challenges in these areas.

From my experience of TG type feelings - and the response they've drawn from others - I think the lack of self-esteem is directly related to "not being a man". Like you feel you're failing society and letting yourself down if you want to dress up - or you just can't get it up for what seems like the endless round of competition that society demands from men (those are my specific "failings" as a "man").

Acceptance is getting easier as our culture better understands that transgender leanings are part of the normal range of human experience, traits that don't preclude being a productive member of society.

I think it is getting easier, but I think the legal acceptance of TG people is in advance of the acceptance of TG people in everyday life. Like it only seems like common sense that, if someone has TG elements, you're going to get a more productive person by integrating them - but there seems some terrible resistance to it among ordinary people.

I didn't transition until I had a healthy measure of self-acceptance, and I found most people content to mirror my acceptance with their own.

I think I am somewhere in the middle, with substantial amounts of both man and woman. I also have the problem that I likely never really wanted to be a man yet, in some respects, turn out to be not bad at it. So I'm really hard to get a handle on - and people have difficulty with that. And it kind of makes it hard for me, then.

Respect is more subtle in some ways. I think the way in which we present our cross-gender characteristics has a lot to do with earning respect. Showing awareness and consideration for others helps. As does being straightforward and honest. Having the courage to stand up for yourself also makes a difference. If you can honestly say to yourself that you did your best, doing the "right thing" wherever possible, it's easier to earn your own respect as well as that of others. It's easy to assert self-acceptance at others' expense, but this is where you'll get blowback that undermines the progress you were trying to make.

Yup, absolutely, I agree with that. If people see you're being straight with them, it just cuts through the problems. My problem with the self-acceptance at others' expense - which I wholeheartedly agree with in general terms - is the specific one of coming up with ideas. If your ideas work and other people's don't, then the fact is you putting your ideas out there is going to be at their expense.

Staying gainfully employed makes feeling valued easier, but there are other measures as well. Being there for your children's needs counts, as does volunteering for a cause you believe in. Believing you're contributing positively to the world is a key element of self-esteem.

The stuff I've done that I've felt has been worthwhile has been from the "male" point of view - kind of aggressive, battling. But, in the centre of me, I feel I've done that, and I would just really like to do something "nurturing", "creative". Like that's where I need to go to be true to "me".

Knowing that you are worthy of love is easy when there's someone who tells you every day, but it's also possible without a committed relationship. Lack of support from family is one of the biggest challenges for the trans community in this respect.

But that's one of the reasons this place (and others like it) is good. Because it gives you (including me) a bit of support.

[Kimberly Kael]

From my experience of TG type feelings - and the response they've drawn from others - I think the lack of self-esteem is directly related to "not being a man."

A strange sentiment to associate with at least some of the people along the trans spectrum who don't identify as men. Trust me, there's plenty of social pressure on women as well, and not measuring up on that account can feel just as deflating. It's particularly problematic when it comes to body image for women who are held to an unrealistic standard that even professional models don't live up to.

For those like yourself whose identity falls somewhere in between I suspect you're right. The social standards of being masculine may dominate and conflict with your feminine aspect, or they may apply in addition to the feminine standards for a double whammy.

I think it is getting easier, but I think the legal acceptance of TG people is in advance of the acceptance of TG people in everyday life.

It varies wildly by geography, politics, faith, education, etc. I've had very few negative experiences, but that's in relatively affluent areas of the West coast, largely in high-tech communities with a large population of college graduates.

I think I am somewhere in the middle, with substantial amounts of both man and woman.

... but you're quite right that living somewhere in between the established genders is not as widely understood just yet. It does tend to make people uncomfortable and represents a more significant challenge for those taking the middle road.

But that's one of the reasons this place (and others like it) is good. Because it gives you (including me) a bit of support.

Absolutely! I was very happy to discover this forum early in my journey. One of the reasons I keep coming back is knowing just how important it was to hear from people with a range of experiences. I enjoy sharing my own when it seems relevant.

[Kerra]

From an early age, I discovered that there are 3 forms of self.

1. Your view of yourself and how you act.
2. Your expectations of yourself based on what others expect you to be (society, family whatever the external influence is)
3. How other people view you and how you view yourself through other people's eyes.

Strip away 2, and 3.

What is left is yourself and this is the most important.

The answer is really self acceptance and to remove other external influences. Put yourself on a desert island how would you want to be there without any other influences?

You have to live with 1 so work on that first and foremost but try to be respectful of 2 & 3 and engage them once you have 1 figured out.

[Ralitsa]

Ahh, well if I were on a desert island, what I would want to be is somewhere else

What I expect of myself is another consideration. The clothes that I wear are not part of that. I require of myself honesty, integrity, hard work, and reliability. My choice in clothes results from personal preference, my sense of aesthetic (poor as it may be) and perhaps some other factors I do not understand. So my requirements for honesty and integrity demand that I behave openly and without any secrets, and also that I refuse to accept standards or mores with which I disagree.

If someone thinks that they can condemn me for the clothes I wear, then I reject the premise that they have any authority for condemning me. Which is why I absolutely despise and disapprove all laws, legislation, or whatever that "gives" rights to the "trans community". These rights are inherent, they are not to be "given" or taken by anyone and it is insulting to me to think that ANYONE, but especially some government functionary, is worthy to suggest what I can wear.

Self loathing? not at all. I loathe those who suggest I am subservient to their opinion.