Comments from Helen Boyd

[Danielle La Belle]

From Helen Boyd, author of My Husband Betty:

Basically, I think most CDs (& transfolks in general) need to think about the kinds of changes they're making - & how they would feel if their partner made the same (but opposite) gender changes.

So for the CD/TG/TS (MTF), what about:

One day, you find out that in secret, your wife or girlfriend has been
borrowing your boxer shorts, announces she wants to grow in all her body hair, would love to do something to bind her breasts and straighten her hips, and cuts all her hair short. she spends a lot of time online learning how to apply facial hair so it won't look "fake."

She starts cracking her knuckles to make her hands look more manly - skips the moisturizer and the manicures, and thinks it's cool when there's some dirt under her nails. she stops wearing any rings but her wedding band, and even that she wished "sparkled less."

She won't wear necklaces or earrings, won't wear makeup, and starts cursing whenever anything goes wrong. she spends most of Sunday watching football, & asks you to bring her a beer while she's shouting when her team scores.

Then she invests $100 in a "packer" so it looks like she has a penis when
she's dressed as a guy. pretty soon this leads to her suggesting that she really wants a strap-on so she can be dominant in bed - because she wants to be a "guy in bed." her pretty female panties lie in a drawer, unworn. she imagines the two of you as gay men in the bedroom, & insists on you giving her dildo "blow jobs."

Not long after, she wants to go out as her guy self, and really gets a kick
out of women thinking she's a "real man" and flirting with her. she starts
buying women drinks, to flirt back, & says it's harmless fun, & "validation" for her masculine side. she starts hanging out with other women who dress as men, and meets a couple who actually DO have sex with women to validate their masculinity, but swears to you she would never do that.

When you tell her she's changed a lot, she says, "but I’ve always been like this - I’m the same person I’ve always been - I need to express my
masculinity."

Now - be okay with all of this in 2 - 6 months, knowing that she "prefers" to be the man in bed most of the time (and might tolerate sex with you when she's wearing a nightgown, but can't stand negligees anymore). when you ask her if she might "femme up" a little, she tells you how long it took to get her hands to look masculine, and how long it takes to grow in leg and underarm hair.

And when you say you have a hard time feeling attracted to her with all that body hair, she says "but I’m the same person underneath. this doesn't make you gay or anything."

And when you ask her, "do you want to live as a man?" - she can't quite give you a straight answer. or says, "sometimes I wish I’d been born a man," or, "if I could take a pill and wake up one, yeah" or "only if I could be a handsome, manly man."


I must admit, this certainly does make one think!

Hugs

Dr. Danielle Marie La Belle

[Elizabeth]

Danielle,

I think we have touched on this topic before, probably many times. And while I know this passage is designed to have a shock value, there are some other considerations.

First, many women from many different cultures do not shave thier body hair off. Likewise, many men who are not crossdressers do. Body builders, professional wrestlers, competitive swimmers, bicyclists, and many do it just for looks and in fact there are many women who find this attractive as well as many men who don't have a problem with women having body hair.

There are also many women who don't wear makeup, and many men who don't want thier SO to wear makeup. Likewise, there are ,men who wear makeup all the time. Virtually everyone in show business, whether TV, movies, performing arts, musicians and some men who just want to look thier best. In fact here in California there has been quite a trend towards men wearing eye and other facial makeup, and is very much part of the metrosexual" look here in LA.

There are many women who wear boxers and if you have not stopped by the lingerie department of your favorite department store, you should, because womens underwear fashions include boxers, and underwear that looks exactly like boys briefs, including the ever popular "whitie tighties".

Many women wear mens jeans and shirts, and in fact don't seem to draw much attention at all. Womens business suits are not a whole lot different than men's business suits, and there are lots of women who do not polish thier nails. Just have a look around the next time you are out in public.

Now, I don't know of any crossdressers out there going to bed with fake vaginas asking thier SO to have lesbian sex with them. It's more like asking them to tolerate thier feminine attire while in bed. So, I don't find that part to be a very realistic comparison. In fact many men have no problem with thier SO who wear thier husband or boyfriends shirts as night gowns. I know my wife did it the entire time we were married. And while my wife did not wear boxers to bed, many women do.

As far as the hair thing goes, many women already wear their hair short in men styles, and no one even gives it a thought.

So in my opinion it boils down to only two real issues. Prostetic sex organs, and the desire to be the opposite sex. There are no silver bullets for these two things. They are deep seeded needs. While I don't personally feel the need to wear prostetics, I certainly understand those who have this need. So for me, if my SO said I just don't feel right, and can't feel good about myself unless I wear a "packer", I would be perfectly ok with it.

Now I understand that I am not the norm here, I don't look at my SO as a trophy, and also don't particularly care what society thinks about me or my SO. Herein lies the problem, because that is the attitude one must have, to deal with this. If you are the type that does a lot of entertaining of guests and/or socializing, than you might also be the type that cares what other might say about your SO. Certainly it would become a subject of interest, and most likely not to your face.

So in the end, a lot of how we deal with all of this, is proportional to how much social interaction we need personally. I know for some, like my ex, it is just way too embarassing to be married to a man who is openly a crossdresser. And likewise I am certain there are plenty of men who would be too embarassed to have a wife that presented herself as a man.

I just want to add that I beleive the idea that Helen Boyd is trying to get across is that this is a lot to try to absorb all at once. It hints at compromise, which I firmly do not believe in. In the end, the key is tolerance. That in my opinion decides what marriages and relationships survive this, not ones willingness to deny what we are for short periods of time to passify our SO's.

And that is one girls opinion.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Terri(SO)]

Well, I read this and thought Yes! that's it!
Elizabeth, you make a few good points, some women wear boxers, some women have short hair and go makeup free. And yes, one point is that it is alot to adjust to in a short period of time. But I think those are not what is really being conveyed in the message.

No, I think that its about finding out the person you agreed to spend your life with, is not who is before you today. If you marry a woman, who may or may not be a feminine little flower but who is without a doubt a female, and then finding out years later that she really feels like she has to behave in the way described by Ms Boyd, how would you feel and react.

This post is about empathy.

Regardless of the opposite direction of transformation, it very closely describes many of the steps (for many, if not most). SOs are asked to tolerate, accept, participate in, enjoy, the kind of transformation described, and do so without asking any hard questions. They may be told they are unloving because they have a hard time dealing with this transformation of the man they fell in love with to a 'woman'.

It is not about compromise, its about a complete upheaval of life as she knows it. Its not anywhere near easy. And the point is if you expect it to be easy for your SO, then MUCH serious thought should be put into the idea of if the tables were turned. I don't mean looking at the details of some women wear boxers already, I mean thinking about what if she felt the desire (the necessity as I've heard it described by CDs here) to "present" to the world or even just you, in the bedroom, as a man.

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all,

I read Elizabeth's post and said to myself thank God for minds like hers, that are able to put things in perspective, and present it as well as she does.

This kind of thing to me is a revelation of a misconceived power struggle that goes on between some women and some men.

Regardless of the opposite direction of transformation, it very closely describes many of the steps (for many, if not most). SOs are asked to tolerate, accept, participate in, enjoy, the kind of transformation described, and do so without asking any hard questions. They may be told they are unloving because they have a hard time dealing with this transformation of the man they fell in love with to a 'woman'

I have never experienced life to be certain of anything other than it is certain that we were born and it is certain that we will one day die. Life is full of changes and one has no choice but to adjust to certain things as one experiences them, along life's pathway.

Discovering that your husband is something other than what you have previously pictured is nothing more than another hard fact of life. It is something he has at one time disliked a lot more than you, but the difference is you have a choice of whether or not you are going to continue to live with it. He does not., he was given no choice. A hard fact of life.

Just because SOs are asked to tolerate, accept, participate in, enjoy, the kind of transformation described, and do so without asking any hard questions. In my opinion is a false impression on the part of the SO. I see it more as being this is the way I am, and this is what I would desire. After having realized that, then it is simply with in your power to decide if you are able to accommodate him or not. there is really nothing more to it than that. I am not saying it is easy, but I am saying it is easier for you than it is for him. because he does not have the option of deciding to live without it.

In my opinion for an SO to go beyond what she can cope with is simply best described as being a willing victim. And she needs to learn how to not be that victim. That is a power that only the SO has, and failure to use it results in a misconceived power struggle.

I am simply not able to connect the CDer having experienced the reality of having to live with who he is in spite of the fact that he would rather be like everyone else miss...the point and expect it to be easy for there SO. I suspect that view is a matter of the SO not being able to see the whole picture.

Love Darlene

[Jassmine(SO)]

Hi Darlene

Most excellent post!

I read Elizabeth's post and said to myself thank God for minds like hers, that are able to put things in perspective, and present it as well as she does.

Me too

*Hugs & Love*

[Danielle La Belle]

I thought that the best way to introduce this topic was to not add my own two cents on the initial post. Helen Boyd of course wrote a book about her life with her current husband, Betty. Helen is a freelance writer and journalist in NYC.

I read her book 3 times, just finishing the last read about a week ago. I received an email with the posted excerpt from her web site mid week. My thinking is, this article certainly presents the idea that the SO is a person. Someone equally with feelings, and all the typical human traits that we all can relate to.

If Helen were here in this forum, I think right now, she would just say, "I am a person too and share equally in a marriage contract that for the most part, is similar in nature and understanding to others. Each party has the responsibility to act a mature and sensible part that considers the impact of what is said and done."

Of course I cannot speak for Helen and Betty. I just want others to consider the 50% divorce rate among average, non-CD'ing couples and then consider throwing in the additional CD concept. Phew!

There are those that would agree, before marriage, we layout on a table, our personalities. But no where is it written that we MUST divulge our secret closet of phobias, fetishes, and fears before consummating the marriage contract. I have been told by reliable legal sources that depending on what was withheld, already married, criminal record, and a few other offenses, the marriage contract can be null and voided by the other party upon learning of such deeds, events or conditions.

I am also told that it is better to tell ahead of time to make sure that both parties can agree on the conditions that one is willing to accept. It does only seem fair.

What about me? 56 yrs old, stayed hidden completely until 4 years ago. What made me explore my feminine side and "come out" at this later date? I am seriously examining my reasons and routinely questioning myself about what I want and how it will effect my loved ones. If you want to know more about me, I am posted else where and include my family life. Just do a search of this forum for "Danielle La Belle."

"The unexamined life is not worth living"....Socrates B.C.

There is a reason for the 50% divorce rate. I have been married 34 years to one woman. Tolerance, commitment, caring, forgiveness, humility, respect, and compromise fairly. No judgment as judgment is finger pointing and that only leads to arguments that lead to closed doors and silence.

Hugs

Danielle Marie

[DonnaT]

We had a poll on this at

http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... php?t=2674

and Love(SO) performed such an experiment at:

http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... php?t=3009

I believe compromise is a big part of a successful relationship. We compromise when we buy a car, a house, where we live, etc.

And of course it takes time for us to get use to each other, especially with respect to CDing. But it shouldn't take years and years to attain acceptance.

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

Terri(SO) wrote:

No, I think that its about finding out the person you agreed to spend your life with, is not who is before you today. If you marry a woman, who may or may not be a feminine little flower but who is without a doubt a female, and then finding out years later that she really feels like she has to behave in the way described by Ms Boyd, how would you feel and react.

Terri,

What I was trying to say, was that the shock comes from social conditioning, because all the things I described, except the prostetics and desire to be the opposite sex, are not culturally unusal in all places. I agree with you that it is not a good thing to find out that the person you married misrepresented themselves, for a whole host of reasons that become mute. The reason I am firmly against compromise is that it just puts off longer the inevitable acceptance that crossdressing is not a preference, it is a state of being. Trying to compromise this is like trying to compromise one's ancestry.

Let's say that two people got married, and they were both caucasians, but some time after being married the husband said, "I know I look white, but I am actually half african american, and if we have children, they may have dark colored skin". Here we have a hidden fact, a great shock, huge consequences, social implications, and an unchangable fact. At this point it does not matter what the wife was entitled to know, it don't matter if the husband want to culturally associate more with his ancestry. Really all that matters is whether or not that wife can cope with the marriage in it's new current form. It's a real bummer that he did not tell her, and she may not want to have dark skinned children. Her family may not approve of her being in a mixed marriage. But the new set of facts can not be compromised.

I feel the same about crossdressing. The only decision to be made is can the SO accept and adapt to the new set of facts. Trying to change the crossdresser, or accept him/her in small bits and peices is just as impossible as accepting the husband in the above example in bits and peices. Just as the man in the above example can not change his ancestry, neither can the crossdresser change what he/she is. It is only for the SO to decide if the new set of facts are something they can accept or not.

And again, that is just one girls opinion.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Terri(SO)]

Hi again,
You know I agree with you both, Darlene and Elizabeth! Yes, it was wrong to have hidden the huge part of you that is crossdressing. Yes, the SO should simply take this new information under advisement and make new decisions from what life is now.

I think, though, that the point is still about empathy.

My guess is that you would still want to stay with the woman you proposed to. You can't deny this part of yourself any longer but it may help you help your SO adjust if you try to see life from her perspective (maybe its really impossible, but it pays to try). Say to yourself, "Gosh, if this was happening to me (her turning herself into a man), what might I need her to do to help me understand?"

I personally think that compromise is not a dirty word. Like DonnaT said, we compromise over many things everyday. But its true there are some things you cannot compromise anymore, CD for you. But you may be able compensate in other ways to keep your SO content. But that's a whole other thread.

I don't think the original post was about the right or wrong of it. Its just about the "what if" the tables were turned?

[Elizabeth]

Terry,

I agree with everything you said and if the CDer loves his/her SO they will do just as you suggest. And that point was not missed on me. In my own case I desperately wanted to help and to be understanding, to provide information, and to try to focus on the positive things.

But there is the nagging issue of trust. Once I had revealed that I had broken trust, there was virtually no way for my marriage to recover. Although we did spend the next 14 years living a pretend marriage. That is why I am so against it.

I wasted 14 years of mine and my exwives lives by pretending that I could be something other than a crossdresser. Because of empathy. I truely felt bad about that position I had put my exwife in. So I lived a lie, and so did she and in the end, we really had nothing in our marriage but a lie. It would have been much better had we just faced the issue, and split up.

I guess in reality I am surprised that any SO stays with any crossdresser. I mean it is a lot to have to accept. I mean, they married a man, they were attracted to a man, and clearly not attracted to women. And even if you could find a woman that was attracted to another woman, she would most likely want a real woman, not a man dressed as a woman. I know that you SO others out there that love and stay with your CD are certainly some special people, and why you are so valued here. There are many here who's life dream is to have a SO who would love them, and accept them how they are. My only point is that these women, you included Terri, are some very special people, and most women are not going to be like you. I guess that was what I was trying to say.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[DonnaT]

I guess in reality I am surprised that any SO stays with any crossdresser. I mean it is a lot to have to accept. I mean, they married a man, they were attracted to a man, and clearly not attracted to women.

Which is the hard part for us CDers to understand. I mean, even when dressed I am still a man. I don't emote any feminine characteristics. My voice is the same. I don't usually wear makeup or a wig, so my face remains the same. The only difference is the clothes I have on. And these clothes do not make me a woman.

So, is it a question of not seeing a man, or not seeing a masculine man?

[Loretta Ann]

You Must Keep Going
====================

Sometimes you must keep going.

Life punches you in the stomach.
It knocks your breath out and leaves you bowed and gasping.

You lose a job. . . you must keep going.

You find out you have a serious illness. . .you must keep going.

You have a headache. . . you must keep going.

Sometimes the things in life are not serious but they affect you
nevertheless. . . you must keep going.

You have a big argument with your spouse.
Neither of you feels like talking and maybe not even looking at
each other. . . you must keep going.

You discover your husband is a cross-dresser...you must keep going.

You discover your wife can't accept you as a cross-dresser...you must keep going.

Your son rebels and you have a blowout with him. . .
you must keep going.

The bills seem to never end and the money seems to never start.

You must keep going.

There are times that make us just want to curl up, stick our
heads in a hole, and make the world go away.

We can't, because we must keep going.

Life is full of those circumstances.

Many of you when you woke up this morning, for a variety of
reasons, didn't feel like getting out of bed, but you had to.

You must keep going.

In times like those, and we all have them,
remember the blessing.

The blessing is not in that we must keep going.

The blessing is that we can.

[Danielle La Belle]

I want to be careful where I step in this mine field.

I agree with some concepts, disagree with others. Mainly, I think that within this controlled forum environment, we can see how humans interact and state their positions rather directly. Some have been influenced by past events, others, current events.

There is a distinctly different thinking patttern between male and female. That is, those of us, TG people, like to think perhaps that because we have a penchant to dress female, that we have all the mental tools of a GG (female). But when we discuss issues, it becomes plain as the nose on our faces that we are still, underlying all the makeup, our birth sex.

Since we are as a race of beings, inter-conected so that we would flourish, there are still lines that are chemically drawn in the brain during early development that define both our sex/gender and personality. I have met many MTF and FTM individuals with a mix of both male and female personality traits, but in the end, their strongest traits are those that reflect their birth sex.

I like the use of the word compromise. We compromise in just about everything we do. True, it can cause or be attributed to social distress in a marriage but so can the need to control and be a (me, myself and I) personality type. "I am that I am, so that I can be me." Serves only the self. It does not take into account other individuals that may be party to this and so I find that while it may suit ones own personality, it leaves a great deal to be desired in a social relationship.

I want what I want, because I want it. So if I want it, thenI should have it. I have trouble with this as we see in the 50% divorce rate in America today.

Hugs

Danielle Marie

[Loretta Ann]

Good morning Danielle,

Yes life is full of compromises, even those who choose to remain single compromise certain things.. For me it has nothing to do with what I want, it has more to do with what I don't want. Marriage is simply not all that it is cracked up to be. Of the other 50% of those who do not divorce, there is a percentage that do not find it as fulfilling as they had dreamed of. In fact the exact opposite is often the situation.

One will make what ever compromises they see as necessary to achieve what they judge as the end product that will bring them fulfillment. Those who compromise to maintain a marriage are doing so because they want what they want, because they want it. So if they want it, then they should have it. And I have a problem with that.

Love Darlene

[Danielle La Belle]

From re-reading everything, the word, [compromise] seems to have drawn a great deal of heat!

I want to go to Disney World, my spouse wants to go to Universal. Since we are only 65 miles from there we could go to each park together, could go individually to the park of our choice, we could not go at all. Compromise. I think here it would be based on several factors not to mention financial and avaliable time permitting our choices.

Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -mised; -mis·ing
transitive senses
1 obsolete : to bind by mutual agreement
2 : to adjust or settle by mutual concessions
3 a : to expose to suspicion, discredit, or mischief b : to reveal or expose to an unauthorized person and especially to an enemy <confidential information was compromised> c : to cause the impairment of <a compromised immune system> <a seriously compromised patient>
intransitive senses
1 a : to come to agreement by mutual concession b : to find or follow a way between extremes
2 : to make a shameful or disreputable concession <wouldn't compromise with their principles>
end

I like to think that we will not need to eliminate this word from our forum vocabulary. It seems to elicit negative feelings and history for some. While I too agree that "mariage" is not all that it is cracked up to be, plenty of highs and lows, it seems to be the only rational way to responsibly create, raise and maintain a family that one takes financial and contractual responsibility for. In a democracy, founded on capitalism, we expect everyone that creates a child to be responsible. The law insures this with a marriage contract.

Compromise...a life long strategy to come to a mutual agreement that benefits both parties.

Hugs

Danielle Marie