Self esteem, Bounderies, and who really wears the pants.

[Virginia]

CJ, as always your wsdom surpasses our sometimes limited ability to express outselves, and you are right in that I think we are all reaching the same end, just getting there from different perspectives. If you will indulge me: In my situation, I did not even know I was a crossdresser until a few years ago. I did not know what crossdressing was, but once Virginia (previously Deborah) began to emerge, I had enough intelligence to say "woah! what is happening here, why do I almost suddenly have this desire to present myself more feminine is both action and dress?" I found this site and THANK GOD you girls were there for me and helped me understand and that one if not the most crutial step was to tell my wife. As I said previously even if that were not the major isssue, having read enough to know what happens to those who discover this "gift" yet attempt to hide it from the world only to be "found out." put me in a different category! I refuse to live "in fear of getting caught." So I told her and of course it is painfully evident that she is one GG that just can not handle it at all! Yes, my problem. In difference to you analogy of changing the rules of the game, the way I see that and I will take it into the gutter, sorry about that, but the analogy works: Here is the game being played by my wife of 28 and year and me it's is called "the backside kicking game." We have been playing this game for 26 years and so far we enjoy it - no winners no losers! Then tragedy, I slip and fall and break a leg. Do I tell my wife I broke my leg? Oh, she just loves this game soooo much why should I disappoint her over this pain I have, I know I'll just change the rules and continue to play, Honey, I hurt my leg, so until its better because you just love this game so much we will continue to play but a new rule is I can be on crutches. Now I have three points on the ground to her two and she has only one when she kicks my backside, but I kick back and still have two bases from which to kick and suddenly I have the upper hand uh? foot if you will. Choices!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She either continues to play by the new rules but is constantly getting her backside kicked; she changes the rules to allow her to have crutches also; or she says "screw you, I quit" and leaves the field of combat!
My wife chose to leave the field of combat, others I have noted chose to make additional rules that either benefited them or even the playing field again. These rule changes were with or without benefit of input from their "opponent", while still others just continue on getting their backside kicked, because they just love the game.
What do you think?
Love ya,
Virginia

[Beauty]

Hi there,

Elizabeth and Virginia? Do you think maybe it's the fact that you both had relationships that ended in part due to your crossdressing that you draw a harder line than others would?

I was able to get CJ's analogy, but the two analogies from both of you seemed to be the same kind of an analogy. I respect that we all know analogies can't truly convey the reality of a situation as they are analogies, but I noticed that both of your analogies were on the side of the person who is helpless to the changes that occurred and when acceptance was asked for a cold shoulder and unreasonable demands were made. There wasn't anything in the analogies that really reflected how the SO side is. In CJ's analogy she used both to convey a sense of change on both sides and although the change was predicated by one, the other adjusted with some give and take.

So that's why I'm asking the question, do you think it's kind of a feeling of scorn because you feel your eyes turned another color or you broke a leg and your partner decided to use this as an excuse to get out of a relationship?

What I've noticed here is that if an SO signed an agreement that your eyes promise to stay one color or you promise not to break your leg and their SO breaks it they go, "Awww.. come on! You broke the agreement!!" I've noticed the SOs here go, ":sigh: Ok. You know how important that was to me, but lets see if we can work this out. Don't expect me to get over this tomorrow, but give me time. I just need time."

I haven't really seen any of them handle the situation where someone has said, "This is over!" and haven't changed their minds because they are so in love with their CD'ing SO.

So here's where I ask for forgiveness if my words have been disrespectful or I didn't think well enough before I wrote what I was thinking. This has been a great thread and I don't want anyone thinking I'm the one who started it to go downhill. (Ok.. I can't control that)

Thanks everyone for being open and honest here. I don't think there's an absolute right answer, but it is cool to read what others think.

Beauty

[Lorna]

Hey Elizabeth,

Excellent post! I can totally relate to feeling trapped within boundaries - in fact "boundaries" are a perfect representation of the better part of my 33 years on this earth. Well said, hon!

Although I have never been married, I have been in relationships in the past where my SO has basically called all of the shots. I felt smothered. I felt trapped. And I was miserable. But I was "doing the right thing" because I totally bought into the BS about how "it takes a woman to kjeep a man ion control"... I guess you could say I grew up with reverse sexism.

It took up until 6 short years ago for me to realize that I no longer wanted to live on other people's terms. Elizabeth, I am truly proud of you!!

*hugs*

~ Lorna

[Georgia(SO)]

Can I back up here a minute? With all the talk of boundaries, we seem to have missed the point that what Elizabeth's wife was doing, with the threats to out him, wasn't about CDing, or boundaries. It was emotional abuse. And those who would use emotional abuse will pick whatever topic is handy and creates the most agony for their partner. For Elizabeth, this topic was CDing.

Repeat. This behavior was not about CDing. This was about the wife being abusive, and if Elizabeth's male side had not been a CDer, but rather had been hung up on whips and chains, or had been given to reading science fiction till all hours of the night, or had been known to take a drink or three, or didn't make enough money, the actions would have been the same.

Emotional abuse is incredibly hard to spot from within the relationship. Unlike physical abuse, which is pretty much apparent, emotional abuse hides under the guises of "They are in a bad mood", or "They don't like this thing that I do" and a bizillion other fronts. (Note: Physical abuse *always* includes emotional abuse. What I'm talking about here is emotional abuse that doesn't include the physical component.)

Elizabeth, you should know that this is what was going on. It wasn't about your CDing, although that was the topic used for the weapon. CDing is such a hot topic that we often seem to miss what really is going on - we blame CDing when the problem is actually a lack of communication, or a love gone sour, or, in this case, a woman who would attempt to control and belittle her partner with no holds barred. Repeat. If she had that propensity, and the willingness to do it, it wouldn't have mattered what Elizabeth was doing, the wife would have zeroed in on it and used it.

I'm not quite awake yet this morning, so I'm rambling. Forgive me. As I mentioned, emotional abuse is hard to spot, and certainly not every wife who has issues with CDing is an abuser, even if the couple fights about it. Clearly blackmail is abuse.

After some years in an emotionally abusive marriage, I thought about how one would differentiate between abuse and the other person is just in a bad mood.

There are some keys here. First, are they being mean? I can be in a bad mood, and snappish, and even shout without being pointedly mean - without truly trying to hurt my partner. Abuse is what it sounds like - an concious effort to fundamentally hurt the other person. Or an effort to control the other person through hurting or frightening them. Any purposeful effort to frighten your partner with real or implied threats is always, always, always abuse.

The dead giveaway, however, is to step outside your own shoes for a moment and look. If you saw this behavior going on between strangers, would you be appalled? You know abuse when you see it from the outside - it looks the same from within the relationship.

Finally, it doesn't matter what you are doing. Abuse is never acceptable and it doesn't get better with time.

Having said that, non-abusive boundaries are a whole 'nother issue. I dislike the whole concept. What in God's name gives me the right to tell my sweetie what he can or cannot do? Ditto, him to me. However, I also have the right to not enjoy it and to do something about my non-enjoyment.

For example, each of us is free to go fool around with other people. No rule can force someone to be faithful. However, the wounded party is equally free to be massively unhappy with that action and leave because of it. That is not an *imposed* boundary. Faithfulness is a voluntary boundary that we accept because we agree that our relationship is more important than that particular action. Voluntary boundaries are not a bad thing...

Before I found this site, (thanks to Donna T), I poked around on some others and it was full of SOs telling other SOs that they had a right to limit their sweetie's CDing to XYZ. Bull. I have no rights to put limits on anything my guy does. However...I have every right to not enjoy it, and if I don't enjoy it enough, I need to go somewhere else. I have absolutely no right to want an orange, get an apple and try to force it into being an orange.

OTOH, on this site, as well as others, I often hear people implying that if the SO doesn't enjoy the CDing, they are setting "boundaries", and trying to control the guy, etc., etc., etc. As if the SO doesn't have a right to feel whatever it is she feels. Ya'll also don't have the right to present yourself as an orange, get all settled into the relationship, and then announce "Hey, I'm really an apple. Get used to it," and then complain because she wanted an orange.

gotta get to work
-georgia (so), with special hugs for Elizabeth.

[Virginia]

Georgia, You are unique among GG's if in fact that is your position and I can only assume it is. My wife set the boundry that she did not want to meet Virginia and it was a boundery that I could live with, it was a boundery however. We briefly discussed it and that was the result. I can not speak for Elizabeth other than to say her situation is different from mine in that with her, her wife chose to bring a "third party" into the relationship and I would leave it up to her should she want to "wash her dirty laundry in publis" yet again.
As for me and my relatinship's demise I honestly don't know, I can guess and I wouild imagine I could ask but at this time I really don't give a damn. But, after my wife outted me to the entire family after I asked her not to, then she set the boundery of never wanting to "meet" Virginia then in family counseling telling the counselor and me that she felt I should get more involved locally and to go to Southern Comfort in Atlanta and that the only thing that really bothered her about me was the tone of my voice sometimes......... then last December she gets this, I don't know what to call it and evidently neither do the Dr's.(brain infection) and she is hospitalized with major swelling int the right frontal lobe - where emotions are generated, now she has seizures and the state will not allow her to drive a car and she moves out last March and in with her parents who are in their 80's (and should not be dirving either). She also says my, for lack of a better term, intelligence intimidates her. She would refuse to play Trivial Pursuit as she claims I know all the answers. She related this to friends. I don't know if she has "outed" me to any of her other acquaintances ( don't really care) but the point being that Elizabeth's situation and mine from the spouses stand point are different. But like Elizabeth I am moving on and certainly enjoying my "Magical Mystery Tour!"
Virginia

[Virginia]

Beauty,
I certainly thank you for taking your time to reply and look at this thread and the resulting opinions. I for one think that this (for us as crossdressers) goes to the very heart of our total existence assuming we are in some type of relationship. And if we are, here are the points as I see them. For our new sisters coming on board this thread should be required reading:
1. Not every SO is going to accept crossdressing, there are various degrees of exceptance based on that SO's ___________(insert multitude of emotions, feelings, interpretations, social/economic skills and background)
2. MY opinion -- in 100% of the cases, hiding it from your SO then having them find out on their own is initially one of the most devistating things that can be "heaped" on them, if you will.
3. Once they get over the initial shock, if in fact they do, and many do not, some simply "pick up their ball and go home!" The three basic questions: Are you gay? Do you want or are you gong to transistion? Why did you keep this from me?
4. If you get past these questions and assuming the SO is satisfied with the answers, then the reality sets in. Holy S..., the guy I married likes to wear my (women's) clothes!!!!!! That, in the relationship, is where "the rubber meets the road." The test of the depth of the relationship begins.
5. This is where this thread comes in: communication, understanding, bounderies, freedom of self-expression, happiness, debate.
You know I wish my sisters Good Speed in all this.
Love,
Virginia

[Jennifer]

If you don't mind my jumping in I have to say this has been the most enlightening thread I have ever read.

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all,

What Elizabeth has said makes perfect sense to me. I think both her and Virginia have a pretty good grip on the situation. Analogies when dealing with issues that are as deep as this will always fall short, thus leaving room for some misunderstanding.

Some things I would like to point to for consideration are as follows:

• Boundaries when used as a permanent method of controlling the other persons behavior are absent of love.
• The only time there should be a need for one to impose a boundary is in the absence of love.

If someone who you are involved with (in a close relationship) lets you know that there is something you are doing, that they can not handle. Then you have a right to be given the opportunity to decide if you can make adjustments to that person. If you can that is a way (or a channel) through which you can demonstrate your love for that person.

• Failure to provide that opportunity is Abuse, period…..

• Unconditional forgiveness is a fantasy that has a hidden cost.

Once someone injures you…. Something needs to happen where by you can be reasonably sure that the same kind of thing will not reoccur, before forgiveness should be offered.

• People do not change because they have been forgiven. They change so that they can be forgiven.
• It is supposed to be a motivator.
• If it isn’t it opens the door to what is referred to as the willing floor mat. And that position is not exclusive of ether sex or gender.
• Forgiveness as far as one not doing anything to hurt the other (revenge) is healthy.
• Forgiveness that says it’s Ok I forgive you this time just don’t do it again means they will do it again.

Hello everybody!!!!!

Life is full of changes. The only thing certain is that we were born and we will die. There are very few of us that have not had to deal with surprises. We always are confronted with the fact that life (people) are not as we thought it/they should be. It is continually changing and so must we, if we expect to keep up.

One ether moves forward or falls behind there is no middle ground where one can remain nice and comfy all of the time. And one needs to find out how to deal (live) with that.

Not one person here is the same person they were twenty years ago. Not one person here is the same person your partner married. (unless you have been married for a short while) And having to deal with pain and surprises is largely what is responsible for that change. And those who have learned how to deal with it are the ones who will move forward. Those who are not willing to learn how to deal with it face a boundary that prevents them from going any further, and they miss out on some of the finer things in life.

And that has nothing to do with whether or not you are a CD or SO.

Peace to all,
Darlene.

[Virginia]

Very wise, Sis!! It is so neat that we all can say the same thing in so many different ways.
The one codocil that I would add is that it seems that each person has their own interpretation of love, both giving and receiving. That is to say, if I do something that I think is nice and is done out of my interpretation of showing how I "love" someone, they may or may not see it as an expression of love. And to be on the receiving end of a gesture of "love" may or may not be interpreted as a "loving gesture." Example, you have the day off and your wife works. She comes home to a nice warm bath, and a candle lit dinner that you prepared (because you love her - no other reason) Her response is "that's nice but you had the day off and it is what I would have expected!" Then critizes the dinner or whatever! That is both party's fault is it not??? He did not know what she would like and she critized his good intentions. They have serious problems. Communication, communication, communication. But when one party will not communicate - say bye! bye! to the relationship!
You done good, Sis!
Virginia

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

I would like to start by thanking everyone who has participated so far for thier insightful comments while keeping the conversation civil. Especially considering the nature of the discussion.

I have a few things I would like to address to help clarify what I am trying to say. I beleive my posts have been miscontrued.

Beauty wrote:

So I don't think it's true that most aren't accepting. I think their boundaries are more than acceptable because it's what they are honest about.

I don't recall saying that most SO's are unaccepting, but if I gave that impression it is because it is a perception of mine. I have only personally seen a few totallly accepting SO's. Yes there are various degrees of acceptance, but with anything in varying degrees, there are varying bounderies to go with it. What I am trying to say is that acceptance needs to be the goal, not bounderies. In my honest opinion, bounderies are nothing more than a way to hide from accepting the truth. As long as I don't see my husband dressed, as long as my family don't know he dresses, as long as our kids don't know he dresses, as long as we have all these little secrets to hide from the truth, we can pretend it is not true. As long as the CDer knows his behavior is so unaceptable, it must be kept secret. He can not be free. We must keep the CDer in shame, guilt, and self-loathing. Bounderies = hiding the truth.

Kay(SO) wrote:

'm simply telling him what I can and will live with.

Would you have Me be untrue to who I am?

Should I change my true self in order to accomodate the fact that he's a CD'r?

Kay,

No, you should not. And if you really can not live with it, you should divorce. If you can't accept the truth about your crossdresser, if what he is , is unacceptable to you, you should just break up. Forcing him to continue to hide who he is, from you, or others as a condition of the relationship can not be healthy. And in my opinion, will lead to resentment for both of you.

If on the other hand you can totally accept your CDer, and say that yes you are very angry about being lied to. That this is very shocking news and will take some getting used to, but you can. That it will take time to rebuild trust, and it is not your fault you don't trust him now, and it is his responsibility to rebuild trust, not yours......... I am tottally for it.

If you force the Cder to continue to hide who he is, he will. If you force him to keep lying about it, he will. He has done it most of his life. I know. I did not want to keep lying, I had to. Even though I promised not to dress, I did, and lied about it. Bercause that is what I am.

I ask all of you SO's out there, that have set bounderies or limitations, do you really think your CDer had a fair chance to refuse? I suspect , just like me, they had to agree. If they did not agree, they were looking at divorce, being outted, maybe being outted at work, being outted to thier friends.

CDers will accept bounderies to avoid being caught or outted. They self impose them before getting caught or telling thieir SO, just to avoid getting caught. But with many, the need to stop feeling guilty, ashamed, and hating themselves leads to the SO being told, or allowing themselves to be caught.

I am not looking to assign blame. I am saying that as a group of people, the transgenedered, we need to stop saying that "bounderies" are the answer, they are not. Could you imagine if homosexuals approached thier behavior with bounderies, as opposed to acceptance, and self acceptance?

It is clear to me that bounderies are not the correct way to go, and if corssdressers are ever going to be free from the bonds of societal shame, we have to stop acting that way, just as the Gay community has.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Terri(SO)]

Isn't the whole concept of being "outted" a boundry you have placed on your spouse? That she is not allowed to tell anyone about your secret? I personally would have no problem with people knowing I'm in love with Maria, but talking about CD to other people in relation to him is a HUGE no-no. I can live with that boundry.
I asked Maria the other day if he had a problem with me being clear with him that I want his male body and all. He said he has no problem with that and that I should always be sure to tell him what I need. If I don't tell him plainly, he won't know how to make me happy. Now that's love!

[Virginia]

Elizabeth,
You know the old saying, "preception is reality," and if you did not say it, I will. Most SO's are unaccepting, yes perhaps in various degrees, but to totally except our "gift." That is a rare SO. And as has been eluded to if not 100% accepting then anything else regardless = bounderies! Should SO's be allowed to set bounderies - YES, IF and only IF it is mutually agreed to by both parties. I will venture to say that in some cases, "cases" that have posted here on this site, I was or am not completely convienced that the person posting was/is a crossdresser, they may have thought they were a crossdresser, but for my interpretation crossdressing goes much deeper than (sorry for seeming crude) just wearing panties!
This thread has been probably the best we have had since I have been a member. I think that everyone who has contributed is wonderful! So far all the repartee has been intelligent, civil and respectful (well, mine may be the exception and for that I seek your pardon if I offended anyone, as that was not my intention.) To put Elizabeth and I together in this one - I could not be in better company (Love you Elizabeth, our resident Oak Tree). Thank God for allowing me to find you girls, She kinda out did Herself for me but I am here and I love you all!!!!
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

Thanks Sis.

You stated:

But when one party will not communicate - say bye! bye! to the relationship!

I agree it then becomes time to get your sorry backside out of there ASAP.

Peace,
Darlene.

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Jennifer,

I just want to take the time to acknowledge your contributions to this thread. I appreciated them. They were good, and I don’t want you to feel like we left out.

Love Darlene.

[Kay(SO)]

Elizabeth,

I can see from this post in particular that you must have been seriously wounded by the emotional blackmail that your wife put you through. The pain comes through in the words and from what sounds like actually happened in your own marriage.

"well, I can accept it, but I don't want to see it. So you are going to have to wear dark sunglasses when you are around me. And I don't want my family and friends to know you lied to me, and really have brown eyes, so you will have to hide your eyes from them also".

and especially "And I am really turned off with your brown eyes, so don't kiss me, or try to make love to me when your eyes are not coverered up". "Since you lied to me about your eye color, you are going to have to agree to these bounderies, or I just can't stay married to you"

You did however hit one word that speaks volumes to my own point of this discussion:

You can use our low self esteem against us and get us to agree to bounderies

The key word being CAN.

That doesn't mean that all wives who impose or suggest negotiating exposure to their husband's dressing is using his low self-worth or esteem against him. She is merely trying to take care of herself.

The part that I'm bothered by here is that if a woman needs limits in order to take care of herself emotionally and simply can't just accept her CDing SO as he is and allow him to do anything he wants then we are the bad guy here. I have to disagree because of some of the requests or behaviors related to CDing that some of our guys want to indulge in.

For example; I'm supposed to just be okay with my husband joining a club of CD'rs and going out into our community dressed and not care if he is recognized even though it affects my livelihood and reputation? I'm supposed to be okay with his friends coming to our home and my 11-year old daughters are also to be okay with it, after all it's part of who he is and they just need to deal with it. I'm supposed to be okay with him demanding that I wear a strap on because he needs to feel like the woman in our bedroom because that's part of who he is. Oh and he is going to spend hours online exchanging photos with shemales because he needs to pleasure himself daily and this is what turns him on. But hey, this is who he is and I need to be okay with it. And if I truly love and accept him than this is part of what I have to accept too. And it's okay for me to feel confused, hurt, upset and lost because his allowance to be whole and who he is takes precedence over everything else in our relationship and my feelings just don't matter if I'm going to be truly loving, supportive and accepting. Otherwise, I'm an emotional blackmailer and can't possibly love him.

Okay, so I'm a little offended and incensed right now. What amazes me is that the expectation of how an SO is just supposed to "be OK" with every aspect of her husband's CDing just because he has told her who he is all of a sudden. She can't impose limits or she's being cruel and unaccepting. Well, why is it that she has to be different than who she is and accept things that she is uncomfortable with? She has to sacrifice who she truly is by not setting limits so that she can live in a comfort zone.

Marriage and relationships are about compromise and negotiation. They have to be because we are all so different. If the CD'r doesn't want to live with any limits, compromise or negotiations then why be in a relationship? If they want to do whatever they want and their SO can't deal with it, why is it that the SO has a problem rather than looking at the fact that they just can't come to a place of compromise that suits both parties or where both can get their needs met and so they might as well not be together?

What you are saying too is "accept me for who I am, even though I wasn't my REAL self when you married me and now this is the real me, who just so happens to have to wear women's clothes, makeup, etc... oh and by the way, I refuse to live with any boundaries or limits so take it or leave it but this is how our life is going to be henceforth."

It seems to me there is something missing here and it's you putting yourself in an SO's shoes and comprehending or being empathetic to HER position instead of focusing on the fact that you've had to hide all your life. You may not mean to diminish the SO's feelings but this entire line of thinking does just that.

Just because SOME SO's use their CD'rs low self-esteem to control them doesn't mean that is what all limits and boundaries are about. It sometimes means that the SO needs the limits in order to be supportive of this new and different aspect of her relationship with her man. Why is this wrong or unfair? There are things that she probably compromises about herself that her husband isn't particularly fond of.

Okay, I'm done ranting for now. I'm not really incensed I'm just frustrated. It's like banging my head against the wall to get CD'rs to understand what it's like for an SO and we continue to get the response of, "what about US?" There are times we don't want to think about what it's like for you but would like for you to think about what it must be like for us to suddenly find out about this new aspect of the men we fell in love with, without it having to be about YOU.

Kay(SO)