Would you entertain modifying your body to better pass

[Carolynn]

Would you think about modifying your body to better pass when dressed?

This is a question that developed from comments on another board where the participants were trying to define CDs vs. TS. Some of the participants claimed to have some minor modifications ranging from taking hormones or estrogenic herbals to different levels of plastic surgery. There are folks who consder themselves permanent non-ops (non SRS) or transgenderists who have had the most modifications includion estrogens, breast implants, and more, and there were some who had photofacial procedures and hair removal to improve their complexion and planned to stop there.

Some of the participants denied that CDs ever did permanent body modifications, while claiming the difference between CDs and TS was in the willingness to have permanent body modifications. Below is the response of a person who happens to be a post op TS, an MD and counselor, responding to such an assertion. Please read it and think about what, if anything you might have thought about doing, even if not seriously, and talk about it, please?

(Mods, it seemed to me that the proper area for this topic was in the Coping for CDs as it is about how much coping might be needed to truly cope for some. If you think otherwise, please feel free to move it to the TG section).

The post that started it:

"I don't think any plain, run of the mill crossdresser would carry out any lasting body modifications, as they are happy with their physical selves and just want to dress up as a hobby...... annon"

Mia's response:
"Just FYI at "Gender Conferences", where major FFS surgeon's such as Dr Zukowski and Dr Ousterhout frequently give presentations... I have personally heard both of these surgeons (and a few lesser known ones) make references specifically to the surgical services they offer for *cross dressers*. People that definitely DO NOT have a formal diagnosis of transsexualism, and whom the surgeon is well aware has absolutely NO INTENTION of ever transitioning. And while I have only ever attended a couple smaller ones of these conferences... even with that limited exposure, I have personally met (in 3D, face to face) more than a few surgically or hormonally altered CD's.

Dr Z, for example, has talked about (and actually presented, since the person in question was there in the audience on the occasion I am thinking about) a patient who specifically self identifies as a CD, who has had BFS (Body Feminizing Surgery -- "[feminizing] ultrasonic and traditional liposuction of the abdomen, flanks and back with large volume fat grafting to the buttocks")... although in his case, the BFS was deliberately limited to produce an "androgynous" appearance.

Both Dr O and Dr Z cite multiple former patients (showing "before and after" photo's of them) who have sought out FFS -- again, usually seeking "androgynous" results, rather than the "fully feminized" results TS (usually) seek. (*Usually*, not always. I seem to remember a few cited examples of "full blown" FFS, where the patient relied on retaining their facial hair to "pass" as male after FFS). Both doctors refer to their ability to provide an improved appearance for "male" life, and yet subtly feminize things so that when "en femme" the cross dresser has a much better appearance.

And that doesn't even start on the topic of the number of "cross dressers" I have met who experiment with HRT, achieving widely varying amounts of *real* breast development. Breast development that would require a "gynecomastic" breast reduction procedure to reverse. Or the number of CD's who seek out laser or electrolysis removal of their facial and/or body hair...

Shrug. I don't know about you, but to me the above sure sounds like "permanent changes to their bodies".

There are transvestites I have talked with who claim to have purely sexual motivations. Drag queens whose self-declared sole purpose is to make a social commentary about women. Even a few "cross dressers" that when asked, rather strongly deny that their "dressing" has anything to do with "gender incongruence" -- who state that they are just doing it for "fun". [I won't get into whether I think they are being completely honest, or are just afraid to admit to possibly having a "mental disorder"].

But then there are CD's who still self-identify as male... but whose "female sub-persona" is so strong that they actually seek minor surgery or medications, not just occasional "dressing", to alleviate their "gender incongruence" feelings to levels they can "live with"... without transitioning. Non-ops, who go a step further... but not quite all the way. And formally diagnosed TS, at the "extreme end of the gender spectrum", who take things as far as they can -- again, to varying degrees. (Sometimes merely due to lack of financial resources... but in a few cases that I am familiar with, the TS had the money for further "corrections" -- but chose not to for varying reasons, often stating a preference for a more "androgynous" appearance and lifestyle).

Shrug. Sure sounds like a spectrum to me, even if that is not something some TS want to admit to. TS may not have a lot in common with those at the opposite end of that spectrum... but the CD's in the middle of the spectrum are a "grey area", in my opinion. One TS have more in common with than they may want to admit...

Love, Mia"

(Sorry this turned out to be so long. Carolynn)

[Kimberly Kael]

There's definitely a spectrum and individual desires and need vary widely, but keep in mind the surgeons attend these conferences as a marketing exercise. There's a well established history of the surgical community trying to sell as many people as possible on the idea that they need to go under the knife to feel good about themselves. I have no problem with someone coming to that conclusion on their own, but to give them an extra nudge seems unethical to me.

[Michelle M]

I identify as a CD, but I'd be willing to get a couple minor procedures done to make dressing/passing easier. The procedures at the moment I'd be willing to spend some money on would be laser hair removal and a reduction of the adam's apple. Most people would probably consider the former not to be a procedure so much, but it costs $2-3000 just for the face; expensive enough to be labeled a procedure. I wouldn't mind a little hormones to develop a little breast tissue, but I would only want enough to fake cleavage, but not so much I'd not be able to look male in a shirt.

[Michelle Miller]

Personally, I'd love to be rid of body & facial hair entirely, but that's realistically as far as I'd go.

[Leeza]

I have thought about breast enhancement .

Leeza

[Susan]

I personally think we do 'modify' our bodies when we dress, false boobs, corsets, wigs all certainly change our appearance, even if only temporarily.

On a more permanent basis, I shave my legs which is the only part of me other than the normal facial hair that I needs to be more feminine. I also have both my ears pierced. This is as far as I am willing to go at this time.

[Michelle Miller]

I also have both my ears pierced. This is as far as I am willing to go at this time.

Wow. I completely forgot about the extra holes in my ears, but I can blame those on a rebellious youth too.

[Absaroka]

On one hand, I'm not even willing to shave off my beard. On the other hand, when I do my exericses at the gym, some of them make my pecs bigger, and I think well that's okay, I can pretend they are breasts. This is a big step for me, in the past I was sometimes reluctant to go shirtless because of either very slight gynocomastia, over develped pecs, or just plain extra fat in that area, not sure which. I no longer feel that way.

So I'd say that although I wouldn't change my body for reasons of CDing, CDing and coming to these forums has helped me to accept the body that I have.


I had a thought about the spectrum. Maybe there are folks who don't want to become female but want to become sort of intersexed. Not something we think of people as seeking surgery to accomplish, but that sure is what some of the examples sound like.

Zari

[Carolynn]

Actually Zari, to be intersexed is to be born with medical issues that can extend farther than just an external appearance, either due to genetics or hormonal based developmental problems in vitro, so later external modifications would not be identified as intersexed. Maybe what you are thinking of is more like making the body androgenous? Of course some people researching CD/TS think that the mental and physical brain characteristics that have been identified are a kind of intersex that leave few marks on the body, in that the brain is also acted upon by hormones and the timing of hormones during gestation.

I am glad you have found accepting your body easier as a result of being here. Sometimes I think acceptance of our bodies is one of the keys to self acceptance as a total person. It may be necessary for some to make modifications to the body to fine tune their sense of selves, though, to match the outside to the inside, even if only slightly.

When I was in highschool and getting injections of testosterone to make me who others thought I should be, I hated having my photograph made, and that continued into my adulthood. As my body changed in ways that were contrary to my self image, life was harder and I had difficulty looking at myself in the mirror, particularly below the neck. Then I had to live with it for so long before I could change anything. I still am not comfortable with my photograph being made, but as I match body and my sense of self, I am a bit more comfortable with it.

Interesting to consider what people sometimes need to do to live with themselves, huh.

Carolynn

[Anita]

A very interesting thread. Carolyn, I'm sorry you had to go through so many years of not wanting to see yourself in a mirror. That is very painful, as I have heard friends talk about this, too. Zari, I was just looking at my chest the other day--it still refuses to look even remotely feminine. To which I've OK with; that's what forms are made for. I've never had much luck with taping to get cleavage.

I am surprised at the degree of modification that the beginning of the thread talks about. I personally would like electrolysis, as I look like Richard Nixon with his constant 5 o'clock shadow beard. Breast augmentation is a serious step, and not something one can hide. I can understand Adam's apple reduction as something that does not really change male presentation that much, but would certainly help with girl mode.

Facial surgery would be hard to explain, if a person were not 'out.'

[DonnaT]

Would you think about modifying your body to better pass when dressed?

To pass better? No.

Too look better, yes.

Some things I'd consider on a permanent basis: ears pierced (done that ); lipo/tummy tuck; eyelid reduction; laser hair removal; That's all I can think of at the moment.

Not worried about passing.

[Robyn Katie]

Hi Carolynn,

Yes I would consider body modification at least in terms of increasing breast size and probably hip size as well. (I already have both ears pierced. Hormones, if done safely under a doctor's guidance, are a possibility. Electrolysis is probably not in the cards.)

I admit, however, that probably the biggest improvement would be weight loss. To regain a waist would help lots in creating a sylphlike figure (dream, dream)! I am now dieting and just beginning to achieve some constructive results.

Not that my goal is to pass, because I can't now, and don't foresee being able to in the visible future. But I would like to look (and to some extent behave) more feminine than I do now, and to the extent I can, I'm working on that.

I know what you mean about mirrors. My self-image increasingly doesn't match what the mirror shows. I feel so much more female and yummy when I'm not in the presence of my reflection that a glimpse of it is a shock. Maybe I can reduce the cognitive dissonance a bit with the diet.

Robyn Katie

[April Rose]

Carolynn , It certainly does seem to be a spectrum. It doesn't bother me that I don't fit perfectly into any one category. I do wish I were a little more Androgynous, so I'd look better in a dress. But I wouldn't go for hormones,or even minor surgery. The benefits wouldn't be worth the risks,either to my health or to my marriage. I can pretty much wear the clothes and play the role at home whenever I want, so I'll take my comfort in that and leave the mods to others.

Robyn, I know how you feel about the mirror. My wife keeps reassuring me that my face doesn't look weather beaten, but the mirror is not so kind. As far as the weight thing goes, I think you're on the right track, but it's hard. I like to cook, and I love to eat. I have been riding my bike, mile after mile, but that's not enough without watching the calories. And even when the pounds come off, the belly has a way of being the last to go.

[Absaroka]

Carolyn you're right about my idea that maybe some people are just wanting to be more androgynous, rather than interesexed. My point is that maybe some folks want to become some of both, rather than just one.

I'd forgotten about this. I read somewhere that one of the more common forms of cosmetic body surgery (again not quite sure of the term) is breast reduction in men. I remember reading that and for years thinking well maybe I will have that done someday. To my mind, for me, the idea that I'd resort to surgery to deal with the body God gave me because I felt self conscious about it it not a good thing. i'm very glad I no longer feel that way.

Great thread, as usual from you.

Zari

[DanteCarrie (FTM)]

Hell no I'd never modify my body. CD only. body bod without aim to have full sex change is transgendered not transexual or CD so no i don't think CDs modify their bodies that would be a transgendered person.
CD crossdress transvestites do it alot more and try to pass transgendered want to live at least most of the time as the other sex but not have sex change and transexuals want sex change. simple.