As I see some things

A 'round table' for CDs, TGs and GG/SOs to talk with each other. We're all in this together, so let's make the most of it.

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Leeza
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Re: As I see some things

Post by Leeza »

Judith, your input is always welcome. The problems you have dealt with and future ones that you are willing to comment on will help others that need to cross that bridge.
My reason for coming here was I believe that if you want information then always go to the experts,
As you deal with it you are becoming one of the experts and others may be able to benefit from your experiences as hopefully you have been able to gain from from those you called experts when coming here.

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Ralitsa
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Re: As I see some things

Post by Ralitsa »

well I'll just throw in my 2 cents. First about whether there is a sexual component to it - absolutely. There is a huge sexual component and anybody who says otherwise is trying to distract you from that. But like Dolores, said, what of that? Why would it be wrong if a guy wants to feel sexy and pretty and attractive? This is the primary consideration for most women, so can you condemn a guy for occasionally doing what women do 90% of the time?
And about wearing bras, high heels, pantyhose, make-up, etc. women have no better reason to wear them than men. Ultimately, their whole purpose is to promote an image that is not realistic, to provide an appearance that is not the actual person. The fact that women customarily do this, and consider it normal, proves that they are fundamentally dishonest. Men know that women are fundamentally dishonest, and choose to go along with the whole game. Because we really like women, and we want to make them happy, and we want them to feel good about themselves, and we want them to be beautiful and to think of themselves as being beautiful. We consider it to be our responsibility to pay the difference between what our woman wants and what the truth is, and to never let her find out we paid it. But sometimes we want to feel beautiful also, and to feel sexy and desirable, and sometimes we want to spend that effort on ourselves; then we feel guilty for being so selfish as to take that pleasure instead of letting our woman have it for herself.
When a woman says that honesty are trust are the most important things to her, we know that she really means that only in a limited way. She doesn't want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; she wants as much of the truth as will validate her own ideas and nothing else. So a big portion of a man's effort goes to translating what is reality into what his SO wants to know about. Again, I think Dolores had a good point about the reaction justifying the initial reluctance to disclose some information. Because the guy doesn't consider honesty and truth to be the most important, he considers the longevity of the relationship to be more important than complete honesty. If you are really going to insist on complete and total honesty, then be prepared to hear a lot of things that you will not be happy to hear. Actually your husband will not do that to you, because he is more concerned about your happiness than anything else. There really are times when you need to allow him to say nothing.
But really, Judith, you have a lot of very good insights. I agree with most of them and you correctly (I think) identify the fundamental issues. Of course your husband is careful how much he tells you, but the reason is clear. You said
If as it seems, being a crossdresser simply means nothing more than clothing and there is no desire to change sex, be a woman etc, then I can’t fathom the need to dress completely, right down to all the underwear etc. Plus the full makeup and wigs, to me that isn’t just dressing, all that then becomes a transformation.
But really, would you do anything less? Don't tell me that you would ever go out in public wearing a cute little sundress, and underneath wear boxer shorts, with penny loafers??? Really, now. So you have to understand that if one is going to do it, she needs to do it the right way.
I think (my own opinion) is that when women start to question why a man would wear these clothes, they also to some extent questions why they are wearing these clothes. The point about high heels is a good one, having a few toes cut off is a very drastic consequence whether it's a man or a woman. But I still like wearing them :P
Anyway, I've rambled long enough.....
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Absaroka
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Re: As I see some things

Post by Absaroka »

Judith it's nice to see how hard you are trying to be accepting of this sort of thing and work through everything with your husband.

Easy stuff first. I can't comment on high heels because I don't wear them. My "girl" is barefoot unless she's hiking in the woods in her dress, in which case she wears hiking boots. Or something like that.

The bra. Well as has been said, it's the most feminine garment there is. So for CDing it could seem like a neccesity.....I get tired of mine after a while. Often when I wear it it is very sensual. The inserts feel like the feeling of hugging a woman and feeling her breasts pressed against mine.

Sex. Yeah a lot of times it's about sex. Probably the majority of crossdressing is about sex. ( I probably annoyed a lot of folks here with that comment, but our membership isn't completely typical of men who wear womens clothing) It doesn't get discussed much here because of the orientation of this forum. But all the books about "deviant" sex practices say it's one of the most common variations there is. Think about it. All the time, effort, money put into sexy lingerie for women to wear to attract men, even if the underwear is just under the clothing making the woman feel sexy. Any surprise some of us get the wires slightly crossed?

Would it upset you to know that sometimes when you aren't home perhaps your husband has sex with your lingerie instead of waiting to make love to you later? I don't know if he does this or not, but I know that a lot of men have done this. And a lot of women would be irritated. They might say it's an invasion of privacy to use their underwear, but might not be mollified if he bought his own instead. But a pair of mens tightie whities just don't have a similar effect on that many women, so this attraction is hard to explain.

Now the difficult one. Trust. Remember that most of us have felt since age 5 or so that we had to guard this secret with our lives. Imagine what would have happened at age 9 if the other boys in the neighborhood found out. My childhood mantra was "no one will know"......Suddenly, maybe in our mid 20's we are supposed to switch gears with the person who means the most to us. Remember too that we usually come to a marriage with baggage from previous relationships that didn't work out. If you peruse these forums enough you will find a lot of stories of men who thought they could trust their wives with this secret. Many had it work out okay. However others found it to be the nuclear weapon being used against them when it came to questions of child custody in the divorce that followed them trusting their wife with this.

My wife is a nice person. She's sort of made it clear that after what I have told her that she'd rather not know more. Just like I didn't read penthouse in front of her when she was healing up after childbirth and then say excuse me, I'm going to jerk off now since I know you don't feel up to sex right now. If I'd trusted her with that little tidbit, do you think she'd have liked it?

My wife knows that when she's out of town I sometimes sleep in her nightgown. It has something to do with missing her. Wearing her sweatshirt and socks have a lot more to do with missing her. I'll openly wear my daughters sweatshirt, but even if they fit I'd never wear my daughters nightie or lingerie. Wearing my own nightgown, well that's not about missing my wife. She might actually be jealous that I'm sleeping in someone else's nightgown. Most women who discover that their husband is his own other woman are not pleased about this......My wife would not be pleased to discuss that I look forward to her visiting her family out of town because I can play dress up all day and night. She'd be hurt to know that this makes me look forward to her abscence. But if I told her, and she was totally accepting, and I could go do yard work in my skirt, well that would take all the fun out of it.

Here is another way to look at it. Can you respect the trust your husband has shown in you to admit that for a long time there was something he was afraid to trust you about? That he now in fact does trust you enough to tell you this? Will you betray his trust with accusations and resentment, rather than rejoicing that he is finally able to do what he set out to do when you two talked about openness years ago? Would you prove his fears well founded?

And yes everyone has secrets. I put one of mine out here, and it wasn't about the clothes I wear. If you go back a couple of years to a topic called "Our girl autobiographies" you will find it. It's very long........I wrote a whole book about my childhood fantasies. I was terrified to give it to anyone. I was terrified to type some of the words on my computer. Then I thought of the saying that we are as sick as our secrets and out it came. I showed it to a bunch of people. My wife waited a long time to read it, I think she was afraid, even though one of my daughters described it as riviting but not upsetting. Finally she read it. Her first comment was that there was nothing in it she didn't already know, even though I'd never told her most of it. It took me 20 years to do this.

I'll leave you with a final thought. I belong to a 12 step group. In this I have a sponsor. Typically you tell your sponsor a lot of stuff you don't discuss with other people. He used to ask me what I was going to take to the grave with me. And I'd always say the same thing, that this was a program of honesty, and that the truth was that there were things I wasn't going to tell him. And he would thank me for telling the truth. Can you extend THAT level of trust to your husband? I can tell you that there have been times when my wife asked what I discussed with my sponsor and I just said I wasn't going to tell her. She felt a little surprised but was able to extend that level of trust to me. And I respected her trust by not lying and making something up.

I hope this helps

absaroka
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Amanda M
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Re: As I see some things

Post by Amanda M »

Judith - these revelations have clearly been very unsettling for you, and it is going to take a while before you and your husband can resolve them. Seeing a therapist would really help you – I think you need to talk about this with someone outside the situation.

I’m going to suggest that you would benefit from some Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

CBT is based on the fact that what we think in any given situation generates beliefs about, and reactions to that situation, and also causes the behaviour and feelings which flow from those beliefs and reactions.

These ‘automatic thoughts’ are so fast that generally, we are unaware that we have even had them. We call them ANTS (automatic negative thoughts) for short.

If the pattern of thinking we use, or our beliefs about our situation are even slightly distorted, the resulting emotions and actions that flow from them can be extremely negative and unhelpful. The object of CBT is to identify these ‘automatic thoughts’ then to re-adjust our thoughts and beliefs so that they are entirely realistic and correspond to the realities of our lives, and that therefore, the resulting emotions, feelings and actions we have will be more useful and helpful.

Cognitive therapists do not usually interpret or seek for unconscious motivations but bring cognitions and beliefs into the current focus of attention and through guided discovery encourage clients to gently re-evaluate their thinking.

Therapy is not seen as something “done to” the client. CBT is not about trying to prove a client wrong and the therapist right, or getting into unhelpful debates. Through collaboration, questioning and re-evaluating their views, clients come to see for themselves that there are alternatives and that they can change.

Clients try things out in between therapy sessions, putting what has been learned into practice, learning how therapy translates into real life improvement.

Please visit this website for much more detailed information on CBT:
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthin ... s/cbt.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you cannot afford to see a therapist, there are good free CBT based self-help resources here:
http://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/cbtstep1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, there is a book called ”Feeling good - the new mood therapy” by Dr. David Burns. It has a hand book which gives you practical exercises to work through and further instructions on how to better use CBT. I really do recommend it.
Cognitive Behavioural Therapy Workbook for Dummies By Rhena Branch, Rob Willson is also pretty good.
As someone else has said, take it all VERY slowly, and please try not to blame or seek revenge.

I can fully understand you concerns about your children, but frankly, your suggestion that
“I can’t see where you fellows will ever gain widespread acceptance because you’re being held back by those men who choose to commit despicable crimes against women and children” and the implication that cross dressers are responsible for much of that harm is very wide of the mark.

Studies at the London Tavistock Forensic Psychiatry Clinic indicate that

“• • Heterosexual men and men who were not transvestites were significantly more likely to be perpetrators than homosexual men and transvestites. The researchers found no significant associations between status as a child molester and voyeurism, fetishism, obscene phone calls or similar acts.”.

It might help you to have a look at the website at

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resource ... 87833.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stay strong and stay open!
If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!
Judith(SO)
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Re: As I see some things

Post by Judith(SO) »

Fiona,

I apologise if you read any implication that crossdressers are responsible for much of the harm done by men with their despicable crimes against women and children, because I never meant to imply that.

I’m quite aware that the majority of men who commit despicable crimes against women and children are usually men who blend into the normality of the community and usually portray themselves as men who are just a normal part of their society and often get themselves into positions of responsibility and as leaders.

In all my experiences I can’t recall any man who committed rape or any other crime of a sexual or violent nature against a woman or child ever doing so whilst crossdressed, in fact, rape and violent sexual crimes against women and children are usually committed as a statement of exerting power over the victim, moreso than just for sexual gratification.

I’ve been a RN for over 20 years and previously worked with rape victims and children who were the victims of sexual deviants, so as I said, my experiences tell me that the perpetrators were men who hid in the community portraying themselves as normal everyday men and before committing their crime(s) never publicly exhibited any behaviour or suggestion that they were anything different.

The point I was trying to make was that at this point in time I just can’t see any way in which you fellows will ever gain widespread acceptance by the general public because of the position most of you are in. Most of you fellows have wives or partners and most have children, so I can see the risk where you all have a lot to lose by coming out publicly, but on the other hand if you don’t then the general public are never going to see that you’re mostly all just normal men who partake in a behaviour which by all accounts seems to be a harmless pastime.

On the other hand GAY men are mostly single guys or men who have left a marriage or relationship and it’s been easier for them to come out enmasse without the same fear of loss which you fellows probably fear. Again, that’s why I believe, in the current environment you fellows will never obtain public acceptance on a wide scale. The way things sit at present there will never be enough of you to make a difference by revealing yourselves or making bold decisions, it would need many to come out with some temerity, but, I can understand the fears which haunt your people because if I lost my family then I would be completely wrecked, so I feel for you all, I really do.

I hope I haven’t given the impression that I’m homophobic or in any way a straight laced person because I’m not. I do have an awareness of what goes on in the world. Because you fellows have always been as you are with your feelings, maybe you can’t grasp the shock I received when I found out about my hubby. The thing is, my hubby says he’s never known anything different and it’s always been a part of him, whereas for me I can never ever know how he feels and experience what drives him, so there we have a situation don’t we, and that is probably a common situation for many of you fellows and your wives.
It was the last thing I ever expected to learn about him. Once the shock subsided then thinking became clearer and one could look at it all more objectively, and believe me, this site has in no small way has helped me, and all the time I spent reading through it was worth the effort. It certainly helps to be able to come into a site like this and get quality information without the fear of being besieged by ‘the other’.

People who have known my hubby for any length of time wouldn’t believe it if I told them, but having said this, it’s become easier to accept him more as to how he is and we work at it, how it turns out in the longer term future I don’t know, but we love each other dearly and that helps immensely because love gives strength, and I’ve always treated my love for him like bread, it needs to be fresh everyday. Believe me when I say revenge is something which is not in my thoughts, revenge for what?, I’ve never apportioned blame as I’m a believer that those who always look for someone to blame are losers, usually when something of any magnitude occurs then the blame has to be accepted by more than one. In most situations, losers whinge and whine and look for someone else to blame, whereas winners deal with a situation and get on with looking for ways to make things better or fix the situation.

I haven’t said this on here before, but maybe I should. I’ve mentioned it to some in private discussion to maybe give them a better picture of why I may seem paranoid about my children.
About three years ago our youngest daughter had a harrowing experience while walking home from school where a man in a car tried to force her and her friend into his car, but luckily she remembered what I’d schooled our daughters in if any dangerous situation arose, and she near brought the house down with her screaming. Fortunately it scared him off and some time later he was arrested for similar and more serious offences against other children and is currently in jail.

The experience was harrowing for a ten year old and has probably left a permanent scar on her emotionally, she is a big part of why I flipped when I found out about my hubby. I can’t tell you all the things which flashed through my mind at that time and what made it worse was not having anyone to talk about it to. I did later consider mentioning it to my daughters counsellor, but she specializes in children anyway, but I promised my hubby I wouldn’t tell anyone, and I didn’t want a re-occurrence of his reaction after I told him I’d mentioned it to my mother.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, I don’t believe that two people in a marriage should have secrets from each other. I’m talking about secrets which hide information which if revealed could have a deleterious effect on the family life and their situation and standing in the community.
Someone said previously that we all have secrets. That buying someone a birthday present and not telling them what it is until it’s handed over is a secret, but really, isn’t that comparing apples to oranges, when you compare it to the secret my hubby kept from me before, after and during our years of marriage.

The first is something which is done out of love for someone and the desire to give them a surprise present which will bring happiness and joy in the giving and receiving, and really, there is never any intention of deception involved is there.

Whereas with the second secret, it involves something which if revealed publicly can have far reaching unpleasant effects on not just the family involved, but on friends and relatives, neighbours, children’s lifelong friends, school, children can unknowingly be cruel to each other, there could be work related effects and so on and so on.
In our situation, we’ve lived in this neighbourhood for 22 years, our children and those of our neighbours have grown up together, my husband has established himself as the local suburban plumber for the area, each year we have street parties, we are a close knit community and I don’t think one has to be a Rhodes Scholar to realize the possibility of all this coming apart and the far reaching effects if his secret was to get out, that is the point I make.

Having said all this, I must say that with time I’ve come to realize why the majority of you fellows, as you say, “stay in the closet”. I do realise that the decision to keep it a secret from people, particularly the woman you married, must fill some people with trepidation, so believe me when I say I my sympathies are with them. I’ve witnessed the painful effect the guilt has had on my hubby, but thankfully the situation is getting better all the time, now that he realizes I’m still standing beside him, as I always have.

Thanks for taking the time and the information you gave me, and I’m sorry for going on so long, this place is an outlet for me and by the time I get round to coming back in here there always seems to be more to say than there is time.

Thank you again,

Judith.
If I was pressed to say why I love him, it's simply because he is he and I am me.
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Rikki
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Re: As I see some things

Post by Rikki »

J,

You are a wonderful, caring and understanding person. Should I ever take the step of revealing "Rikki" to my wife, I am sure that I will make every attempt to have her read your post. You captured so much about our (you, me & spouses) feelings about life, love, thoughtfulness and caring. Bless you. Rikki
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Anita
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Re: As I see some things

Post by Anita »

Hi Judith--
I'm glad you're still around. I thought you might not get a chance to read some of these posts.
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Re: As I see some things

Post by Anthony Simon »

It's good to hear from you again Judith. It's just nice to know how you're doing - and that you feel able to basically say what you want to say is exactly what this place is for (or part of it).

It's also kind of wonderful to hear how well you and your husband seem to be doing. Given that you've got no-one else to turn to outside of us and him, that's a pretty remarkable achievement. And also, given that you've only got him and us to talk to about this, I wouldn't worry about writing the stuff you need to write here.
Socrates: The highest wisdom is to know that you know nothing.

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Leeza
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Re: As I see some things

Post by Leeza »

Judieth, I was glad to see you back in here.

This is a place where we can discuss our concerns even when it seems we are writing a book to express them.
Leeza
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Absaroka
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Re: As I see some things

Post by Absaroka »

Glad to see you are still here Judith.

You said you can understand why some of us are still "in the closet". But the expression doesn't need quotation marks. The origin of the expression in the closet has to do with us. It has the same meaning as the term closet queen and refers to crossdressers who keep their dressing a secret, as opposed to performers who do drag publicly and are called drag queens. The term drag queen itself is a show business term. DRAG is stage direction for "dressed as girl" So performers who did this and also acted like a prima donna were called drag queens.

Somehow the gay community appropriated our terms regarding the closet for use by themselves. Many, but by no means all, male performers who did drag were gay. A lot of them were heterosexual men. And the greatest drag queen of them all is a woman, Madonna Ciccone. Of course that's just an opinion....

Who was the most popular crossdresser in the 1990's? A Disney character, Mulan.

Ah trivia......it can give you a lot to think about however.

BTW I agree with the folks who say if your husband really wants to get in touch with his feminine side, he should concentrate on being who you want him to be, since so many women seem to do that, or at least try to.
Absaroka
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Judith(SO)
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Re: As I see some things

Post by Judith(SO) »

My hubby is the only man I’ve ever known who likes to dress in women’s clothes, and then it took me until over the age of forty to find this out, so I never had the opportunity or need to gain any knowledge about it.
Of course I knew there were men who dressed up as women but it never crossed my mind there was one so close to home. Over the years seeing people come across my station in the Emergency Department in hospitals, it’s quite enlightening to see what some people do to their bodies and what they wear at times, and the excuses they’ve given for how certain ‘accidents’ occurred are what may be termed as highly imaginative.

Undoubtedly with the percentage of men who indulge in the practice of crossdressing, I’ve probably unwittingly known men who did, but they were probably firmly in ‘the closet’, and I suppose what we don’t know won’t hurt us.

On the other hand I’ve known and worked with quite a number of GAY people over the years as they are out in the open, and I’ve always found them to be good people to know and work with, I certainly have never had a problem with people who liked to live alternate lifestyles or preferred same sex relationships, and it’s easier to get to know them because of the fact they are open about it all.
In fact the man who I currently work for in his Private Hospital is a GAY man, and since he recruited me from the Public Hospital system we’ve formed a very trusting harmonious working relationship. I not only have great admiration and respect for his skills, but as a person he is second to none.

I find it very comforting to be able to work with a man and have a conversation with him where he looks me in the eye and doesn’t constantly let his gaze travel to my chest. It’s also comforting to be able to work with a man in a confined area for long hours and not have to deal with those irritating ‘accidental’ touches and body contacts which often occur when in close proximity with heterosexual men.

I think it’s fair to say that no matter who we are, what we do, whatever our lifestyle preference is, what our sexuality is or the colour of our skin or the religion we choose to follow etc, there will always be a percentage of people who won’t like us or given the chance they will do us harm, even though I believe the number of good people in the world far outweigh the others.

I think there is much for people to learn from us who are just mere females in regards to what we can do, who we mix with, where we can safely go at any given time of the day or night, because there will always be those who have the mind and will to do us harm, and I think that would apply to those of you fellows who bite the bullet and step out into the public dressed as a woman. Your courage amazes me, but hopefully the need doesn’t cloud clear thinking and the need to take the necessary precautions to ensure your safety at all times. I would think you’re at risk to all the things we women are, and maybe more.

Nobody knows better than me in regards to how life can be snuffed out in the wink of an eye, so I’ve always been a stickler for trying to live life to the extent where one reaps the greatest rewards and enjoyment, I believe that if one isn’t happy with their life, then fix it, but so many people never get close to achieving their life’s goals, and for that it’s a crying shame isn’t it.
I do so want to be able to see my hubby make his life better, and I guess it’s just a shame that I found out as I did and when I did, but my Father always told me that things happen for a reason, and when the reason for this becomes evident then we can only hope my hubby can find his comfort path. I do wish I could do more but there are a number of obstacles in the way atm, but we’ll see where we go as times goes by.

I am feeling better about things overall, and for the last few weeks I’ve been discussing some of it with my boss, with the ok of my hubby, and this has been of tremendous help as my boss is a very wise man with life’s problems, and he’s opened some channels in my mind for me.

Thanks again.

Judith..
If I was pressed to say why I love him, it's simply because he is he and I am me.
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