heavy reading but good insight to what we deal with

[Virginia]

American Chronicles - http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/american-chronicles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

August 04, 2014

"What Is A Woman" - The dispute between radical feminism and transgenderism
by Michelle Goldberg


"As transgender rights gain acceptance, radical-feminist views have been shunned."

Not everyone loves us!

[Anthony Simon]

Thanks for that. I think it was an interesting article. The radical feminists do seem to be very much on the back foot. Actually, I'm not keen on all the harassment they face, for all their views are, well...

I don't suppose you'll win them round by being nice to them, it's just that it offends my sense of natural justice - and it's so obvious that the fact that "liberal" public opinion has turned in the TG favour is the basis for their problems.

[Anita]

That is a tough read, with many verbal punches to the gut.

From the article:

Sandy Stone shares this view—up to a point. Of the radical feminists’ position, she says, “It’s my personal belief, from speaking to some of these people at length, that it comes from having been subject to serious trauma at the hands of some man, or multiple men.” She adds, “You have to respect that. That’s their experience of the world.” But the pain of radical feminists, she insists, can’t trump trans rights.

I’d like to adopt Sandy Stone’s attitude; that of respecting the trauma that underlies some of these attitudes. To some extent I can. But the way these radical feminist ideas are presented is infuriating to me, and it tends to erase the goodwill.

That said, I don't like the hatred that’s being directed at the anti-trans feminists. That’s outrageous, too, and does not speak well for our side. And it is always troubling to me when we declare certain viewpoints so horrific that we try to suppress any public expression of them.

I have some prejudices against trans men, and I try not to take it out on them.
It’s not like I don’t understand someone having a hard time with trans people.
But I don’t see any compromise here, and that’s what gets me angry.

Thank you, Virginia, for sharing that article. It’s important to know what’s going on out there.

[Paulette]

I read Julia Serano's response to this piece before I read the article itself.

Julia's thought and concerns were not well represented, she says, and you'll have to see her blog post to work it through. http://juliaserano.com/blog.html

The impression I got was that the basic battle was between being inclusive and being exclusive, those who want to restrict membership to womanhood, and those who don't. And of course it's not simply between cis- and trans- women. it's between a very small group who want to exclude anyone not born a woman, and those, cis- and trans-, who are comfortable opening membership to anyone who feels they belong, for whatever reason they believe it.

This small group. These so-called TERFs (trans exclusionary radical feminists) seem to be "radical" only in their desire to exclude from feminism's umbrella anyone not born a woman. I don't see that they have anything else to say that hasn't been said by other feminists before them. That doesn't make them radical. To me that's a misappropriation of the label "radical feminism." Hysterical yes, in the sense that their fears of trans-women and their generalization of personal trauma from specific men not only to all men, but even to anyone who rejects that label and identifies instead as female. Exclusionary, yes, but not particularly radical.

This is the same tactic used by unscrupulous political groups: identify a small but identifiable number of people as the enemy, insist they are trying to take away or infringe on rights that don't belong to them, drum up as much fear and hatred as possible by vilifying this group (trans-women and CDs) and insist on attributing motives to them that they may in fact not have. Fear is a great organizational tool, if you don't care who you hurt.

There's a great deal more in the NYer article and in Serano's reply, but those are my primary feelings about what matters most to me. I'll probably expand my concerns and interest when I have time to read it all again.

[Virginia]

Found a response to this article for those of us who are interested in more of the "war" that we are a part of:

Site is http://www.AutoStraddle.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; under "Society and Culture".

"The New Yorker's Skewed History of Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism Ignores Actual Trans Women" by: Mari Brighe on July 29, 2014


This is an interesting group. You should take a look at who and what they are!

Virginia

[Anita]

Paulette wrote:

This small group. These so-called TERFs (trans exclusionary radical feminists) seem to be "radical" only in their desire to exclude from feminism's umbrella anyone not born a woman. I don't see that they have anything else to say that hasn't been said by other feminists before them. That doesn't make them radical.

That is interesting that you point that out, Paulette, that their position is not really radical. They could be called reactionary feminists, as they are bucking the tide here.

I think that acceptance of trans women by feminists in general has a long way to go. This is just opinion / speculation on my part, but I think that the fears that the TERFs are voicing are concerns that many women still have about trans women. The difference is that a majority of feminists are trying to rise above those fears, and not be ruled by them. I applaud that, and I recognize that it's not easy to do. I can support equal housing and racial quotas, for instance, but that doesn't stop me from tensing up when I see three black teenagers in front of the liquor store. Ideally I want the best for everyone, but my gut doesn't always go along with my ideals.

Which leads me to my next point: I may get angry and upset about this, but I can't will another person to stop seeing a trans woman as a man. Or more to the point, to stop them from reacting to a trans woman as though she were a man. As a fair-minded person, a woman may accept the idea of trans women wanting to be recognized as women. But if her gender radar still picks up male cues, she may have a hard time being around trans women. I have had my own bad experiences with men, and I was physically able to fight back against them when I needed to do so. If I had not been able to do this, it's easy to imagine the anger and fear I might feel around them. The point is: If I see you as a man, and I've had bad experiences with men, then I'm not going to be very open to listening about how you see yourself. I'm going to protect myself against the threat.

Believe me, I deal with this issue every day. My girlfriend is legally a woman; her driver's license, medical records, and social security all say she is. There are friends and family that either can't or won't accept her as a woman, and it creates lots of problems.

We can't ignore the fact that there's a segment of our own "sisters" that don't accept certain kinds of trans women. A portion of women who have had surgery refuse to recognize any woman who has not had surgery. They consider these women to be "men."

Paulette wrote:

This is the same tactic used by unscrupulous political groups: identify a small but identifiable number of people as the enemy, insist they are trying to take away or infringe on rights that don't belong to them, drum up as much fear and hatred as possible by vilifying this group (trans-women and CDs) and insist on attributing motives to them that they may in fact not have.

It is disheartening that some TS women use these same tactics on non-op women, while they in turn are shunned by the TERFs.

[Anthony Simon]

Found a response to this article for those of us who are interested in more of the "war" that we are a part of:

Site is http://www.AutoStraddle.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; under "Society and Culture".

It's basically instinct, but for some reason this article screams at me "hidden agenda".That she's using TG's and her really interest lies elsewhere. I would be very careful.

[Paulette]

Thanks for the http://www.autostraddle.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; reference. Their guide to cities made my day, especially NOLA, where I actually live! And their list 40 children's books made me cry.

Not gay, but there's sooo much there I can identify with.

[Anita]

Thanks for the Autostaddle link, Virginia. The original article by Michelle Goldberg was well-written, to the point where I did not notice the bias. I'm usually very fine-tuned to anti-trans slants.
I reacted strongly to two parts, especially: the trans man "regret," and the Blanchard theory. But Ms. Goldberg constructed her article in such a way that both sections seemed to be a logical progression for the picture that she was presenting.

I like what I've read in Autostraddle so far. I wish they could recognize trans women specifically, though.

Autostraddle is an intelligent, hilarious & provocative voice and a progressively feminist online community for a new generation of kickass lesbian, bisexual & otherwise inclined ladies (and their friends).

[Anthony Simon]

The original article by Michelle Goldberg was well-written, to the point where I did not notice the bias...Ms. Goldberg constructed her article in such a way that both sections seemed to be a logical progression for the picture that she was presenting.

I think the article is like a series of Chinese boxes and I was suspicious of it until I'd read it right the way through. In the end, I concluded her heart was in the right place, kind of recessed but in the right place.

The Autostraddle thing, on the other hand, is all upfront moral certainty and outrage. I don't believe anything that's so certain of itself. You can't be, unless you've got an agenda.

[DonnaT]

http://bitchmagazine.org/post/terf-war- ... r-identity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Diana Michelle]

Both interesting articles and definitely not light reading. As a post operative transgendered I know of the discrimination, the lows and fortunately the highs of my life. It is not easy and I very closely guard my "secret" from many. No I am not ashamed of who I am but prefer to select those I let that deep into my life. I live in a small community in Northern Michigan, think of it Billy Bob goes north. The bulk of the people here are the types that hang on every word Rush Limbaugh utters and probably voted for Mitt Romney even though he was one of those "damned Massachusetts liberals!"

My point is we have to live our lives and choose our battles wisely. When I was getting married the first time my grandmother pulled me aside and told me one of the keys to a successful marriage was there are fights worth having and fights not worth having. Considering this is a small radical sect within a basically accepting group I don't feel this is a battle worth having right now. Still like any radical group, either right or left, they must be watched carefully. Remember how Hitler came to power in Germany in the 1930's!

Those who don't study the past are doomed to make the same mistakes.