Aspiring to the "weaker" sex

[Sara]

In some of the conversations we've had over the last few days, we've discussed the relative status of women in the world. To repeat a contention I made earlier, it seems to me the fact that our aspirations to express feminity are largely disparaged in our society is a reflection of the pervasive sexist nature of our culture, despite all the gains women have made in the last decades.
Why do I say that? Because the world still applauds a woman who aspires to traditonal male bastions of power and prestige. We laud the woman firefighter or mountaineer or business executive.
But disregarding cross-dressing for a moment, men who would aspire to traditional female roles--stay at home parent, kindergarten teacher, nurse (although that's changed some) are looked at askance and even with suspicion.
Now every member of this forum either works hard to express a feminine personality in at least a part of our lives--reaching for something that much of the world considers somehow inferior. (Or, in the case of the SOs here, had the fortune to be born women.) In many parts of the world it is far, far worse for women. (In parts of India, if you are conceived as a female, the chances of your being aborted rise substantially.)
Some years ago, I had an experience that helped me understand how women sometimes feel about where they stand. I was working for a corporate executive, who gave me a rather severe dressing down in front of other members of the staff. When he stalked off, one of the women in the room said to me, "Well, you might as well just shave your legs and put on a skirt." i.e.--he was treating me like a woman, which was pretty bad, and I might as well get used to it. (Aside: she didn't know how much I liked the idea, but never mind.)
Anyway, I'm not sure where to go with this, but I'd like to hear others views on this topic--will women ever gain full equality, not only in the eyes of the law, but in the eyes and minds and hearts of both men and women. Or do you disagree, and am I just talking through my beret?

[Shannon]

Well this may come off totally wrong, but to answer your question...

"will women ever gain full equality, not only in the eyes of the law, but in the eyes and minds and hearts of both men and women."

No

It just isn't there. Males run our society and I feel it will always be that way... I am sure women are and will continue to excell in business, politics, etc.... but when it comes down to it humanity will always be male dominate....

But in my opinion, why do men do what they do? Why do they strive to be richer, more powerful, more respected.... to get women....to have the prettiest girl on their arm.... to have women throwing themselves at them...

So this may be total BS and may irritate every one here, but when it really comes down to it women control this male dominated society in more ways then they realize.

[Beauty]

Hi there,

I think they will.

:: runs from Shannon ::

Beauty

[CJ]

Hi Sara and Shannon,

Now, this is a subject I can warm up to pretty quickly! But I'll keep it as brief as possible for now 'cause I'm very curious what others have to say on the matter.

The fact that patriarchal standards have been around forever it seems, doesn't mean they're any more natural than a two-ton Ford pickup truck! Matriarchal societies (and, more importantly, matrilineal societies) were actually the norm for most of human history and still are in many parts of the world--even here, in North America, where some Native indigenous tribes trace their ancestry through the mothers' side of the family.

The flowering of Aryan culture, some 6,000 years ago cast a shadow on many, many local matriarchies in Europe, the Near East, and the South Asian subcontinent. Female divinities and deities were trampled underfoot and erased from public worship. India, Turkey, Palestine, Greece, the Balkans--all slowly had their female-worshipping cultures transformed and, eventually, remade into the image of the "invaders from the North." (The warlike Aryans came from the southern steppes of what is now Russia.) The point is, here, patriarchy is something fairly new to human culture. And it's not written in stone. And it can't last forever.

There's an interesting phenomenon anthropologists and religion scholars call "percolation" to describe how the "female principle" so basic to human culture is resurfacing in many different ways throughout many different societies and practices in the world. For example, Goddess (Kali) worship in India as well as the village trials there, all run by women, the decisions of which men must abide by. Yes, female infanticide runs high in some parts of Asia--but that feels like the withering stranglehold of a dysfunctional patriarchy. Another example, here in the U.S. and Canada, the recent convergence of political women's movements with the return of a female-centered spirituality (such as Wicca and Druidism). Yet again, just look at the disintegration of traditional models of the nuclear family--something that's occuring even in traditional cultures, not just here--a sure sign that Woman is struggling to find her own Voice in the world. One that She lost long ago at the hands of barbarians. If we're wise, we'll let that pendulum swing back, in the hopes of finding some middle where both men and women (and all of us in between) can finally unite.

Well, that's how I see this, anyway. I apologize for the soapbox, but I think this is a crucial matter--and even though nothing may change in our own lifetimes, we have to invite it nonetheless.

Love,
CJ

[Jessie]

I find all this quite fascinating (I like that word) anyhow, on the side, I started writing a story of society where it is nearly completely dominated by women. For every 100 females born there may only be one male. The odd thing is my male side still placed a lot of power to the one male. I wonder how I got so influenced by this. In my story women make almost all the decisions but that one woman to give birth to the male will be considered higher than all other females.

Now am I influenced by culture when I write this odd idea of different world.

Jessie

[Alexandra]

"will women ever gain full equality, not only in the eyes of the law,"

it IS the law.

"but in the eyes and minds and hearts of both men and women."

one word: Oprah


It can be done. It IS being done.

[Beauty]

Beauty

[Alexandra]

thank you, thank you.

[CJ]

Hi Jessie,

Sounds like a (dare I say it?) fascinating story you've got going there. I'd be curious to know what the social mechanics of such a culture might be. Are the women dominant because the men are so few? or are the men so few because the women are dominant?

Perhaps you've invested the male of the species with much power because of the taboo conferred upon him by his rarity. I'm sure the opposite would be true also, where the rare female in a male-dominated society would be held in both fear and awe.

As to whether or not you're influenced by your own culture in realizing the setting of your story: can it be anything but so?

Love,
CJ

[Jessie]

Well when I started writing it I even did math (and boy did my head hurt) making it so for every male born there are at least 20 females 1:20 ratio. I figured it being that it's gentic and to make things worse once a female gives birth to a male she becomes sterile and can not have any more more children. HOWEVER those woman are considered sacred and taken care for the rest of there life of so some sort.

It is Sci-fi after all.

Jessie

[Carolynn]

Hi Jessie and all. Your story idea has potential. You could make it slightly more twisted by using some of the descriptions of how mutations occur on the X and Y chromosomes. David Bainbridge (The X in SEX: How the X chromosome controls our lives; Harvard University Press, 2003) and Steve Jones (The Descent of Men, Houghton Mifflin, New York, 2003) have non-jargonized explanations of how some sex linked mutations and recombination of genes create some of the afflictions of the world, like Hemophilia and dwarfism. Same mechanisms, maybe aided by a doomsday virus, could be responsible?

On the original subject of the thread, two books by a young Japanese professional are showcased at http://www.foriegnpolicy.com/story/stor ... ryid=13976
The books concern the plight of females in modern Japanese culture, which is even more patriarchal and strict than that claimed for our culture since the Pilgrims. It is interesting that the apparent backlash comes in two ways: fewer young women choose to be married, and fewer choose to become pregnant. More choose the work force even though they are only hired for jobs of the more decorative, menial sort and at low pay. Nevertheless, they have their own apartments, and are prepared for a life without children or permanent male companionship. The result is the birth rate is 1.32 children per population. The govt. is concerned about potential decreases in the value of land, falling production and tax base. Part of one government group's proposed solution--If a woman will not have children, she should be allowed no pension even if she has worked for 40 years. Japanese women have had the vote since WWII; I wonder how long it will take them to try vote power to help along culture change? Sounds like it's needed. Now, consider the constraints on women, their earnings and status in Japanese culture, juxtapose the concept of a normal rate of TG and TSism, and then weigh the claim by the moral conservatives is this country and others that TG/TS is a choice or lifestyle? :x Sometimes, folks, they just make me tired!

Hugs to all,

[Sara]

Oh, Carolynn,

Do I understand what how you feel! Tired doesn't begin to express it. As far as women have come in the West, which isn't as far as many people seem to think, you still want to weep when you look at the rest of the world, the world of forced abortions, burkas, et. al.
Then you have to listen to the so-called moralists on the far right (so far right they're in danger of falling off their flat earth.) In a world run by those maniacs (and, hey, they run it at the moment) who would CHOOSE to be gay, TG, TS, or GG? I, too, grow tired of those who define the world first, then require that all of us conform to that predetermined vision.
Of course, I have my own selfish agenda here--I wish I could be accepted for what I am. But far more important than that is the question of how we raise women to true--not legal, not, "Of course you're equal, dear. Now help out in the kitchen," but true equality.
My point of view, obviously as a member here is surely not without a bias. But I didn't choose to be this way (although for all its pains, I LIKE the way I am.) And as the father of three sons, I'd be delighted if the day came when then could say they had found women worth emulating.
Which brings me back to Jessie's story. A novel of a few year's ago, The Handmaid's Tale, told of a world in which most women could not bear children as a result of pollution, radiation, etc. Those who could conceive were enslaved to a male elite. They pretended to venerate those women, but the women were no more than chattels. It was quite an engaging book, and I'd recommend it to you, Jessie, as something that is at once quite different from what you are writing and at the same time quite similar in theme.
I think women will never gain full equality while they are "venerated" primarily as the bearers of sons. In a way, the society you've created, Jessie, in your nascent novel is as misogynist as the world we live in. That's not a criticism, by the way. What you have is an interesting fable, that tells a story that even in a world of women, men somehow dominate. It rings true. Keep working on it, dear.
Oh, my, there I go again. My keyboard should be programmed to shut down to rein in my rants.

Love to all,

Sara

[CJ]

Hi all,

The book Sara is referring to, Jessie, is called The Handmaid's Tale by Canadian author Margaret Atwood and, yes, its definitely worth a read. You can, however, pass on the movie version (with Robert Duvall).

Sara, I think it's an amazing statement you made regarding wanting your sons to be able to look up to female role models. I actually had to read it a few times and swirl it around in my mouth to experience the taste of it, it's so rare. Now, that, I'm all for. And I'm not thinking women, here, like Margaret Thatcher (who, though female, has made a career out of mimicking a male outlook on the political world). Women that could remain visible and in power while yet standing on a platform based on social justice, an ethics of compassion, sustainable economics, and environmental far-sightedness; that's what we need. And I, for one, would hope that all men could find the sense to emulate such women.

Love,
CJ

[Jessie]

I think people are starting to take my story, whiach by the way is now on the back burner while I finish my current novel-book-story (you choose). I was not expressing that males control the world it's more like they are, would be the right words, breed for one thing but to keep them happy the females give them small amounts of power to keep there egos in check. The one thing I did not mention as this is a Sci-Fi story is that I have GC Gentic Creations or as some people would call them Furries in our modern language. Animals that have simulare features to humans but do most of the manual labor of this world. Maid, grounds keepers, cooks etc etc .... Any how the thing is I was trying to dignoes how I came up with the idea that has a much larger female population than male one that's all.

Jessie

P.S. I will look into checking out that book The Handmaid's Tale you mentioned.

[Charlene]

I have a GG as a boss. She is quite high in an international company. Of course women can and are equal to men.