Hi all,
Elizabeth,
Can I play devil's advocate here and offer up an opinion we often hear from those close to us (SO's or otherwise)? You say that boundaries must be self-imposed rather than forced upon us. Yes, I agree. But where does that leave, say, a spouse, who gets "crowded out" by our self-imposed boundaries? If our boundaries are such that we must be allowed to take the space we need to in the world in order to be ourselves, isn't this at a spouse's expense? Especially a "non-accepting" spouse (which, more accurately, from her point of view, is a person just as much in need to have her own boundaries respected as you are yours)?
I know what your answer is. You said as much above. Like Jasmine used to say, whenever the subject came up, "this is your life, your one pass at happiness here below; don't waste it on being someone you're not. And if that entails that a relationship must end, then so be it; both partners will be better off for it." I've always agreed with this, too. Yet, there's a doubt. As Kay once said (and she's certainly not wrong), relationships require some effort on the part of both partners. That's what a partnership is, after all. Often, this is true, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health. When do both mates agree to call it quits if their relationship heads south? This is one of the hardest boundaries to negotiate, I think, because it's imposed not by the other nor by oneself but by the very circumstances in which they both find themselves.
I don't have a partner and I haven't had one for a while now. I think one of the reasons is that I make my own boundaries plain, even to strangers. For this reason, there aren't that many flies attracted to this particular fruit (so to speak). But--and you and Raven are a good example of this--there is someone somewhere out there who's comfortable with the kind of person we are, boundaries and all.
As for imposing our boundaries on someone else (or having another person's boundaries imposed on us), I'll let William Blake have the last word:
A Robin Red breast in a Cage
Puts all Heaven in a Rage.
Love,
CJ
Self esteem, Bounderies, and who really wears the pants.
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Jennifer
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While I've never had to deal with the issues that many of my sisters have I have never experienced the pain you have gone through. When the one you love so dearly doesn't know and can't accept the person you are, boundaries whether self imposed or not will never fix the problem. I feel for all of you because you are all loving and caring people who are just being who you are. It is heartbreaking that society does not understand this gift we have. I love you all.
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Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
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Hi CJ,
I don't intend ot belittle or deminish the point of view of the SO in my philosophy of no crossdressing borders. In the 14 years of mariage where I agreed to bounderies this was at the forfront of my mind. It was me who deceived her. Why should she have to pay for that.
I did my best to accept that it was my fault and if anyone was going to have to suffer, it would be me. And I did. But in the end, that is not enough because my ex-wife suffered just knowing I was transgendered. Knowing I wanted to crossdress and would if not for her, was enough to make her life miserable too.
We had a marriage of tolerance, not love and mutual respect. In fact we had no respect for each other at all. I finally just started wearing girls underwear all the time covertly. She pretended she did not know, but eventually just started washing them and returning them to my drawer. Wre had 4 children, a business to run, a mortgage, two cars, social and family obligations.
It was harder to split up than to stay together. But the anger grew. I seen her as represssing me, and even though I can speak for her, I beleive she was embarassed and indeed shamed to be married to me. She feared anyone finding out. She would worry that I would get into an accident and it being a small town, everyone would find out.
My point is not that there can be no negotiation. My point is that you only live one time. Don't waste it being unhappy trying to make someone else happy. It is impossible for me to beleive that there are non-accepting SO who are going to be happy, supportive and loving, living with a person they can not accept. And likewise any CDer living with a person who does not accept at the core, who they are is living a very unfulfilled life. I know, I have done it both ways.
I am saying that there can be no hurt worse than the hurt of living a negotiated marriage as opposed to a loving one. A marraige of tollerance as opposed to one of being accepted at face value. And that works both ways. The SO feels devalued because she has been lied to and "tricked" into a marriage she may not have entered into with full disclosure. And thre CDer who feels devalued because his SO don't love him in spite of who he really is.
These are not simple problems and there are no simple solutions. What I have seen so far have been drastic solutions. Those who claim to have solved thier relationship problems with "bounderies" make me quite skeptical. I am curious to watch these as time goes by. I would love to be proven wrong about my views on this.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I don't intend ot belittle or deminish the point of view of the SO in my philosophy of no crossdressing borders. In the 14 years of mariage where I agreed to bounderies this was at the forfront of my mind. It was me who deceived her. Why should she have to pay for that.
I did my best to accept that it was my fault and if anyone was going to have to suffer, it would be me. And I did. But in the end, that is not enough because my ex-wife suffered just knowing I was transgendered. Knowing I wanted to crossdress and would if not for her, was enough to make her life miserable too.
We had a marriage of tolerance, not love and mutual respect. In fact we had no respect for each other at all. I finally just started wearing girls underwear all the time covertly. She pretended she did not know, but eventually just started washing them and returning them to my drawer. Wre had 4 children, a business to run, a mortgage, two cars, social and family obligations.
It was harder to split up than to stay together. But the anger grew. I seen her as represssing me, and even though I can speak for her, I beleive she was embarassed and indeed shamed to be married to me. She feared anyone finding out. She would worry that I would get into an accident and it being a small town, everyone would find out.
My point is not that there can be no negotiation. My point is that you only live one time. Don't waste it being unhappy trying to make someone else happy. It is impossible for me to beleive that there are non-accepting SO who are going to be happy, supportive and loving, living with a person they can not accept. And likewise any CDer living with a person who does not accept at the core, who they are is living a very unfulfilled life. I know, I have done it both ways.
I am saying that there can be no hurt worse than the hurt of living a negotiated marriage as opposed to a loving one. A marraige of tollerance as opposed to one of being accepted at face value. And that works both ways. The SO feels devalued because she has been lied to and "tricked" into a marriage she may not have entered into with full disclosure. And thre CDer who feels devalued because his SO don't love him in spite of who he really is.
These are not simple problems and there are no simple solutions. What I have seen so far have been drastic solutions. Those who claim to have solved thier relationship problems with "bounderies" make me quite skeptical. I am curious to watch these as time goes by. I would love to be proven wrong about my views on this.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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Kay(SO)
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Ya'll should have known I couldn't keep my two cents out of this discussion. So, I will tell you where I'm coming from as an SO, and as an SO with certain limitations.
I refer to my boundaries related to CDing as limits. The reason I do this is because I am human and have certain limitations of comprehension, capacity to deal with issues emotionally and mentally and sometimes it takes time for me to process, learn about, change my perspective, accept, live with, etc...
The few limits I have currently are that I do not want to live with my husband as a full time dresser or woman, even if that's who he truly is nor would I stay in a married relationship if he were to transition. Oh yea, and I would prefer that my husband not engage in she-male pornograpy in our home.
Are these limitations "fair" to impose on my husband? Perhaps not but then he does have a choice as to whether or not he can live with my limits. If he wants to be with me, this is how I feel and what my limits are. These are limits that have not changed over time and probably won't. I didn't initially set any "boundaries" or limits with my husband regarding Cding because I didn't feel it was fair of me to do so and I wasn't about to be responsible for keeping him from being his true self. After all, everyone in his life up until that point had done just that.
As I learned, experienced, grew, and discovered how I felt about certain aspects and elements of CDing, I realized that there were simply some things that I was not comfortable with and that I probably never would be. Did this mean that I was going to control him or tell him what he can and can't do? Not at all. The way I see it, he has a choice just like I do. However, there is one catch. If he chooses to live beyond what I'm comfortable with and beyond the few limits I have in order to be comfortable, then he can live somewhere else and we are obviously not well suited to be in a relationship such as a marriage. My husband often refers to my way of doing things as "my way or the highway," and I agree that it may seem that way to him. From my perspective it's me taking care of myself emotionally and mentally by telling him honestly what I can handle and what I can't or won't live with. If that's who he is, far be it for me to stop him from being whole. Hopefully that explains my use of the word limits instead of boundaries.
Elizabeth wrote:
Elizabeth also wrote:
Now I've got another twist to add. I don't think that because an SO has difficulty accepting this aspect of her spouse doesn't mean that she can't or doesn't love him. Okay, so in comes the "unconditional love" stuff. Well, my theory on that is this; there is no such thing. We are human and I'm not sure that I have ever in my lifetime met anyone who loves unconditionally. I think there are always some types of limits, it's part of what makes us human and part of how we survive in life. Someone else wrote that boundaries are necessary and I agree. You bet they are. Are they necessary when it comes to CDing? Sometimes.
The bottom line is that we have all been given the ability to choose how we live our lives. Misery is optional. I believe that people are only as miserable as they choose to be because God gave us the ability to have free will and to be able to make new and different decisions. I'm not saying here that everyone's life can be "perfect" but if someone is miserable they can certainly do something about it.
I need limits in order to not be miserable. If my limits make my husband miserable then he is entitled to make new choices about how he wants to live his life.
Thanks for the thought provoking topic. And remember all, this is just my take on things from my own life experience.
Kay(SO)
I refer to my boundaries related to CDing as limits. The reason I do this is because I am human and have certain limitations of comprehension, capacity to deal with issues emotionally and mentally and sometimes it takes time for me to process, learn about, change my perspective, accept, live with, etc...
The few limits I have currently are that I do not want to live with my husband as a full time dresser or woman, even if that's who he truly is nor would I stay in a married relationship if he were to transition. Oh yea, and I would prefer that my husband not engage in she-male pornograpy in our home.
Are these limitations "fair" to impose on my husband? Perhaps not but then he does have a choice as to whether or not he can live with my limits. If he wants to be with me, this is how I feel and what my limits are. These are limits that have not changed over time and probably won't. I didn't initially set any "boundaries" or limits with my husband regarding Cding because I didn't feel it was fair of me to do so and I wasn't about to be responsible for keeping him from being his true self. After all, everyone in his life up until that point had done just that.
As I learned, experienced, grew, and discovered how I felt about certain aspects and elements of CDing, I realized that there were simply some things that I was not comfortable with and that I probably never would be. Did this mean that I was going to control him or tell him what he can and can't do? Not at all. The way I see it, he has a choice just like I do. However, there is one catch. If he chooses to live beyond what I'm comfortable with and beyond the few limits I have in order to be comfortable, then he can live somewhere else and we are obviously not well suited to be in a relationship such as a marriage. My husband often refers to my way of doing things as "my way or the highway," and I agree that it may seem that way to him. From my perspective it's me taking care of myself emotionally and mentally by telling him honestly what I can handle and what I can't or won't live with. If that's who he is, far be it for me to stop him from being whole. Hopefully that explains my use of the word limits instead of boundaries.
Elizabeth wrote:
My husband loves me. Is he sacrificing who he truly is by staying with me, knowing my limits? No, because he doesn't want to or have an interest in doing those things I've mentioned anyway. Therefore, his perspective is that for the first time in his life, someone does accept him wholly and completely. And he is grateful for it. If he were suppressing these things and they were part of who is truly is, I would insist that he go live his life the way he needs to and be free of our marrige. I will not be responsible for his unhappiness.My point is not that there can be no negotiation. My point is that you only live one time. Don't waste it being unhappy trying to make someone else happy.
Elizabeth also wrote:
I've seen people doing it for years and I'm sure that each relationship and person has their own reasons for staying. Would they be happier if they had the support and acceptance of their spouse? Sure, but the marriages I've seen appear to be doing okay inspite of it and they also seem to treat CDing as a separate entity.It is impossible for me to beleive that there are non-accepting SO who are going to be happy, supportive and loving, living with a person they can not accept. And likewise any CDer living with a person who does not accept at the core, who they are is living a very unfulfilled life. I know, I have done it both ways.
Now I've got another twist to add. I don't think that because an SO has difficulty accepting this aspect of her spouse doesn't mean that she can't or doesn't love him. Okay, so in comes the "unconditional love" stuff. Well, my theory on that is this; there is no such thing. We are human and I'm not sure that I have ever in my lifetime met anyone who loves unconditionally. I think there are always some types of limits, it's part of what makes us human and part of how we survive in life. Someone else wrote that boundaries are necessary and I agree. You bet they are. Are they necessary when it comes to CDing? Sometimes.
The bottom line is that we have all been given the ability to choose how we live our lives. Misery is optional. I believe that people are only as miserable as they choose to be because God gave us the ability to have free will and to be able to make new and different decisions. I'm not saying here that everyone's life can be "perfect" but if someone is miserable they can certainly do something about it.
I need limits in order to not be miserable. If my limits make my husband miserable then he is entitled to make new choices about how he wants to live his life.
Thanks for the thought provoking topic. And remember all, this is just my take on things from my own life experience.
Kay(SO)
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Terri(SO)
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This was a topic in the SO section not too long ago as well. Here is an excerpt [additions in brackets] from my response over there...
I, myself, don't think I set boundries to Maria's crossdressing. He is a grown person and makes his choices and has to be prepared to deal with the consequences. I put on the table (speaking in negotiating terms, in a way) that I really love him, his male persona, and while I'm happy to satisfy his need to crossdress, I need that male body (in male mode) to be satisfied, myself. If he chooses to be all Maria all the time, hey, that's absolutely his right. But exercising that right would also mean that I would move on to someone who would be willing to do what I need to be satisfied.
There's a difference between an SO arbitrarily setting boundries [or using CD boundries for blackmail] and laying down what she needs to be happy in a relationship. If her man coming in for a smooch while wearing lipstick [or wearing breast forms, or whatever] is a turn off, that's what it is and no amount of desire to support him will change that. And again, I've said so many times that I hate the feel and mess of kissing with lipstick (his or mine) that he now automatically wipes it off first! No lipstick may seem like a boundry but in reality its courtesy on his part.
I, myself, don't think I set boundries to Maria's crossdressing. He is a grown person and makes his choices and has to be prepared to deal with the consequences. I put on the table (speaking in negotiating terms, in a way) that I really love him, his male persona, and while I'm happy to satisfy his need to crossdress, I need that male body (in male mode) to be satisfied, myself. If he chooses to be all Maria all the time, hey, that's absolutely his right. But exercising that right would also mean that I would move on to someone who would be willing to do what I need to be satisfied.
There's a difference between an SO arbitrarily setting boundries [or using CD boundries for blackmail] and laying down what she needs to be happy in a relationship. If her man coming in for a smooch while wearing lipstick [or wearing breast forms, or whatever] is a turn off, that's what it is and no amount of desire to support him will change that. And again, I've said so many times that I hate the feel and mess of kissing with lipstick (his or mine) that he now automatically wipes it off first! No lipstick may seem like a boundry but in reality its courtesy on his part.
Love is a verb. It's a doing thing. No action, no love! - Terri
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Virginia
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Most interesting repartee ladies. We hopefully all have our own inbread bounderies, i.e. it's not in my nature to speed up in the parking lot and run down the little grannylady pushing her shopping cart in front of me.
It may not be in my nature to dress up as a woman and go out in public, these are bounderies we set on ourselves. Our Society sets bounderies, like you better not dress up like a woman and go out in public or "we" the unwashed have every right to try and humilate you. - Bounderies! Marriage, each spouse is entitled, yes entitled to not necessarily set but t o discuss bounderies - that is marriage. It is a give and take and it takes/requires high levels of communication all the time to grow and provide a safe, loving environment for a family. Then as Kay says, choices rear their ugly head and each partner makes their own choices. Set bounderies, were to set bounderies, how far to push the bounderies, when and how to ask for adjustments to bounderies.
But as most of you relate, directly and indirectly, we WE are responsible ultimaely for our own happiness -If you CHOOSE to be miserable and unhappy deal with it!!! If you want to do something that crosses bounderies, but in your heart makes you happy - it is your choice, make a decision and live with it! Life is just too short to be miserable, at least for me and as the old saying goes: " Bored with life??? --- Risk it!!!"
Keep the faith ladies,
Virginia
It may not be in my nature to dress up as a woman and go out in public, these are bounderies we set on ourselves. Our Society sets bounderies, like you better not dress up like a woman and go out in public or "we" the unwashed have every right to try and humilate you. - Bounderies! Marriage, each spouse is entitled, yes entitled to not necessarily set but t o discuss bounderies - that is marriage. It is a give and take and it takes/requires high levels of communication all the time to grow and provide a safe, loving environment for a family. Then as Kay says, choices rear their ugly head and each partner makes their own choices. Set bounderies, were to set bounderies, how far to push the bounderies, when and how to ask for adjustments to bounderies.
But as most of you relate, directly and indirectly, we WE are responsible ultimaely for our own happiness -If you CHOOSE to be miserable and unhappy deal with it!!! If you want to do something that crosses bounderies, but in your heart makes you happy - it is your choice, make a decision and live with it! Life is just too short to be miserable, at least for me and as the old saying goes: " Bored with life??? --- Risk it!!!"
Keep the faith ladies,
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
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Hi girls,
It was so great to see the SO's chime in here and share thier point of view. It is not lost on me. I would like to beleive I have a good understanding of these points of view, having been involved in imposed bounderies in my former marriage.
It would seem that "love" does not play a part in this formula, at least what I read from the SO's
Both SO's seem to have no emotional ties to thier CDer's at all. Both are perfectly willing to end the relationship to get what they want. That is what happened to me, and it worked. For 14 years.
"Do what I say or I will leave" works. It will get the SO what she wants. She also knows that if she leaves, she will also be able to take the "social high ground" by merely outting him. The SO will be favored by society, and indeed the courts in many states. In Tennesee where my ex-wife is from, crossdressing is grounds for loss of parental rights. I had to seize custody of my children to prevent my exwife from taking my kids to Tennessee where I would have got totally screwed in the divorce.
So when I hear the SO's say "my way or I will leave" I know that the crossdresser knows the consequences of this action. Divorce is not nice. It is ugly.
I do not want to offend the SO's who posted here, I am indeed grateful. because you have made my point so clearly for me. And most crossdressers, like me, will comply rather than face divorce, being outted, and all the ugliness that goes with it because it is the lesser of two evils. We will say we are ok with it, and that we really don't want to do those things anyway. We will say how we will do it because we love you so much. While we continue to daydream about what we really want to be, and really want to do.
But the resentment will grow. Respect will be lost. And eventually the crossdresser will have to have his needs met anyway. In the end, you run the risk of living as very unhappy life for a very long time and no one ends up happy. It ends up just lost years of happiness.
I don't want to come off as making the SO's the bad guy here. They are no different than anyone else. Trying to have thier needs met. And it also works both ways. There are Cders who use the same emotional blackmail. " I am going to dress and if you don't like it, leave".
All I am saying is that if the SO's really can not accept thier Cding husbands to the point that they need to change thier behavior with boundeeries, than it is my opinion that resentments are going to build over time, and doom the relationship.
This is just the opinion I hold and don't beleive it is any better than anyone elses opinion and hope I have not offendded anyone by expressing it.
Love always,
Elizabreth
It was so great to see the SO's chime in here and share thier point of view. It is not lost on me. I would like to beleive I have a good understanding of these points of view, having been involved in imposed bounderies in my former marriage.
It would seem that "love" does not play a part in this formula, at least what I read from the SO's
Terri(SO) wrote:
But exercising that right would also mean that I would move on to someone who would be willing to do what I need to be satisfied.
Gone is the "for better or worse", gone is love. To me this is emotional blackmail. It uses the love of the crossdresser against him, by making him choose between giving into the demands of his SO, or getting kicked to the curb.Kay(SO) wrote:
If he wants to be with me, this is how I feel and what my limits are.
Both SO's seem to have no emotional ties to thier CDer's at all. Both are perfectly willing to end the relationship to get what they want. That is what happened to me, and it worked. For 14 years.
"Do what I say or I will leave" works. It will get the SO what she wants. She also knows that if she leaves, she will also be able to take the "social high ground" by merely outting him. The SO will be favored by society, and indeed the courts in many states. In Tennesee where my ex-wife is from, crossdressing is grounds for loss of parental rights. I had to seize custody of my children to prevent my exwife from taking my kids to Tennessee where I would have got totally screwed in the divorce.
So when I hear the SO's say "my way or I will leave" I know that the crossdresser knows the consequences of this action. Divorce is not nice. It is ugly.
I do not want to offend the SO's who posted here, I am indeed grateful. because you have made my point so clearly for me. And most crossdressers, like me, will comply rather than face divorce, being outted, and all the ugliness that goes with it because it is the lesser of two evils. We will say we are ok with it, and that we really don't want to do those things anyway. We will say how we will do it because we love you so much. While we continue to daydream about what we really want to be, and really want to do.
But the resentment will grow. Respect will be lost. And eventually the crossdresser will have to have his needs met anyway. In the end, you run the risk of living as very unhappy life for a very long time and no one ends up happy. It ends up just lost years of happiness.
I don't want to come off as making the SO's the bad guy here. They are no different than anyone else. Trying to have thier needs met. And it also works both ways. There are Cders who use the same emotional blackmail. " I am going to dress and if you don't like it, leave".
All I am saying is that if the SO's really can not accept thier Cding husbands to the point that they need to change thier behavior with boundeeries, than it is my opinion that resentments are going to build over time, and doom the relationship.
This is just the opinion I hold and don't beleive it is any better than anyone elses opinion and hope I have not offendded anyone by expressing it.
Love always,
Elizabreth
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Beauty
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Hi Elizabeth,
Your post was strong, but I think it was respectful. You stating more than once that you weren't trying to be mean, read to me like you were doing your best to keep the peace.
Well done. It wasn't an easy thing to say (your feelings about this), but I feel you did it in a respectful way.
Beauty
Your post was strong, but I think it was respectful. You stating more than once that you weren't trying to be mean, read to me like you were doing your best to keep the peace.
Well done. It wasn't an easy thing to say (your feelings about this), but I feel you did it in a respectful way.
Beauty
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Virginia
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Elizabeth,
I am a a loss as to what to say other than "been there doing that." As you know I am in the throws of a divorce. Am I at fault for not "pinning her down" as to why she wants a divorce after 28 years? I have never asked her directly I have only tried to put two and two together and it always adds up to 3 or 5 or 6!!! Going to family counselling, I swear we would spend less than five minutes on my crossdressing and the rest of the time on her low self-esteem ( I got notes to prove it). She , SHE suggested that I get more involved in helping other crossdresser and that I go to the Southern Comfort Conference in Atlanta. Her only "boundry" was that she did not want to meet Virginia, this as you know after she outted me to her entire family and mine after my asking her not to until I better understood what was going on with me. It is hard to believe but she told the counselor her only complaint with me was "the tone of my voice sometimes." I hate to keep washing my dirty laundry here, but if nothing else it can be a lesson for some of our sisters who may be travelling this same path.
I hate to say it, but having been on this forum for the time I have I think there is a pattern here for the SO's and it is generally non-acceptance, there I have said it. Some claim to accept it some with linitations, bounderies if you will, then they tend to try an shrink those bounderies. Others may claim to accept it and maybe they do, but I don't think so. It is not their fault men and women are different just in case no one has noticed. I cite the study that I came upon several months ago that we as males are genetically closer to chimps than we are to the female of our own species. If an SO is willing to put up with us (CD'ers) and the CD'er is willing to accept any bounderies that are placed on them GOD Bless 'em. I think that though and we have seen it here in more than a couple of occassions, it comes back to bite us right in the backside. Is it anyone's fault, CD'er or SO no I think not. It is just the way we are constructed to see the world and to react to what we don't understand (even if we try.)
PLEASE DON'T BAN ME FROM THE FORUM FOR THIS! I am simply expressing what I have interpreted here and what I am personally experiencing.
God Bless you all and keep the faith and we will all get throught this!
I am not flaming anyone or casting dispersions, I just think Elizabeth is right in her interpretation.
Virginia
God, I hate to hit "submit," but.........
I am a a loss as to what to say other than "been there doing that." As you know I am in the throws of a divorce. Am I at fault for not "pinning her down" as to why she wants a divorce after 28 years? I have never asked her directly I have only tried to put two and two together and it always adds up to 3 or 5 or 6!!! Going to family counselling, I swear we would spend less than five minutes on my crossdressing and the rest of the time on her low self-esteem ( I got notes to prove it). She , SHE suggested that I get more involved in helping other crossdresser and that I go to the Southern Comfort Conference in Atlanta. Her only "boundry" was that she did not want to meet Virginia, this as you know after she outted me to her entire family and mine after my asking her not to until I better understood what was going on with me. It is hard to believe but she told the counselor her only complaint with me was "the tone of my voice sometimes." I hate to keep washing my dirty laundry here, but if nothing else it can be a lesson for some of our sisters who may be travelling this same path.
I hate to say it, but having been on this forum for the time I have I think there is a pattern here for the SO's and it is generally non-acceptance, there I have said it. Some claim to accept it some with linitations, bounderies if you will, then they tend to try an shrink those bounderies. Others may claim to accept it and maybe they do, but I don't think so. It is not their fault men and women are different just in case no one has noticed. I cite the study that I came upon several months ago that we as males are genetically closer to chimps than we are to the female of our own species. If an SO is willing to put up with us (CD'ers) and the CD'er is willing to accept any bounderies that are placed on them GOD Bless 'em. I think that though and we have seen it here in more than a couple of occassions, it comes back to bite us right in the backside. Is it anyone's fault, CD'er or SO no I think not. It is just the way we are constructed to see the world and to react to what we don't understand (even if we try.)
PLEASE DON'T BAN ME FROM THE FORUM FOR THIS! I am simply expressing what I have interpreted here and what I am personally experiencing.
God Bless you all and keep the faith and we will all get throught this!
I am not flaming anyone or casting dispersions, I just think Elizabeth is right in her interpretation.
Virginia
God, I hate to hit "submit," but.........
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
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I would really question the study that said men are closer to chimps than women. Men and female chimps for example can not produce a viable offspring.
Elizabeth I have to say that I thought that you read the SO responses wrong. I guess they can speak for themselves but I wanted to say it.
I have a bunch of boundaries that if my spouse crosses I will give serious thought to ending the relationship. Fortunately they are things we agree on. Like extramarital sex, spousal violence and the like. Before we married we knew we agreed on these, and lest you think that this is a case of 'of course you did" I know people who would not consider these legitimate grounds for ending a marriage.
Then I have less mainstream boundaries. Like not a lot of drinking in the house, because I just don't like it. Social drinking is fine but I just don't like drunkeness. She knew that before we married also.
On to crossdressing. She didn't have a chance to discuss boundaries before marriage because I didn't tell her. One of the reasons was that I hardly ever did it back then and it wasn't very important. But if I bring it up now I am the one who has changed the rules.
I agree comletely about the for better or worse. But it has to go both ways.
I am not offering an opinion on your marriage. How can I? but I think the whole question of spousal acceptance is a very complicated one.
Andrea
Elizabeth I have to say that I thought that you read the SO responses wrong. I guess they can speak for themselves but I wanted to say it.
I have a bunch of boundaries that if my spouse crosses I will give serious thought to ending the relationship. Fortunately they are things we agree on. Like extramarital sex, spousal violence and the like. Before we married we knew we agreed on these, and lest you think that this is a case of 'of course you did" I know people who would not consider these legitimate grounds for ending a marriage.
Then I have less mainstream boundaries. Like not a lot of drinking in the house, because I just don't like it. Social drinking is fine but I just don't like drunkeness. She knew that before we married also.
On to crossdressing. She didn't have a chance to discuss boundaries before marriage because I didn't tell her. One of the reasons was that I hardly ever did it back then and it wasn't very important. But if I bring it up now I am the one who has changed the rules.
I agree comletely about the for better or worse. But it has to go both ways.
I am not offering an opinion on your marriage. How can I? but I think the whole question of spousal acceptance is a very complicated one.
Andrea
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
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Beauty
- Retired Site Administrator
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Hi,
Perception can be very individualistic and my perception is the SOs here are really very accepting. Most of the SOs here were not told about the CD'ing until after marriage or a long period of dating. So I don't think it's true that most aren't accepting. I think their boundaries are more than acceptable because it's what they are honest about. Honesty is refreshing and it's the opposite what the majority of the gals who have extreme boundaries received, not all, but the majority. As time passes and they gain more of an understanding I've witnessed the majority (not all)redefine barriers that aren't as extreme. Time after time I see SOs do this, but after not being told the truth I think it's fair for them to set them up.
Even Kathy SO has boundaries and she's wanted to marry a CD'r her whole life. You do promise to marry for better or for worse, but I think marriage is also compromise not just, "If you loved me you'd let me have everything I want because I'd let you."
I find that the SOs here that don't really have any boundaries knew about their SOs CD'ing before marriage or even before they started dating. For all others it seems to me that they are more than accepting. I haven't really seen any SOs who've joined who haven't been accepting of their CD'ing SO. That's just my opinion though.
Beauty
Perception can be very individualistic and my perception is the SOs here are really very accepting. Most of the SOs here were not told about the CD'ing until after marriage or a long period of dating. So I don't think it's true that most aren't accepting. I think their boundaries are more than acceptable because it's what they are honest about. Honesty is refreshing and it's the opposite what the majority of the gals who have extreme boundaries received, not all, but the majority. As time passes and they gain more of an understanding I've witnessed the majority (not all)redefine barriers that aren't as extreme. Time after time I see SOs do this, but after not being told the truth I think it's fair for them to set them up.
Even Kathy SO has boundaries and she's wanted to marry a CD'r her whole life. You do promise to marry for better or for worse, but I think marriage is also compromise not just, "If you loved me you'd let me have everything I want because I'd let you."
I find that the SOs here that don't really have any boundaries knew about their SOs CD'ing before marriage or even before they started dating. For all others it seems to me that they are more than accepting. I haven't really seen any SOs who've joined who haven't been accepting of their CD'ing SO.
That's just my opinion though.Beauty
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Kay(SO)
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The part that isn't being understood from my perspective is that I'm not making threats or blackmailing my husband.
I'm simply telling him what I can and will live with.
Would you have Me be untrue to who I am?
Should I change my true self in order to accomodate the fact that he's a CD'r?
I think it's being missed that what I've been saying is that my feelings just ARE, just as he is a CD'r. I can't help that is how I feel with the limits that I have.
I'm saying too that he has a choice about whether or not he wants to compromise himself. I am simply saying this is me, these are my feelings and I love you but can't live with certain things in my life. If he has to do or be these things then we aren't meant to be together.
The part that hurts me is that you insinuate that we intentionally are out to tell our spouses "my way or get out," and I don't see it that way at all. Or that there is no love lost in our hearts if this becomes our reality after sorting through the overload of feelings that come from finding out that our husband's are indeed crossdressers. For some of us, we do the best we can in accepting and accomodating. I feel that he can try to find someone more suited to his needs and lifestyle if he's not happy with my level of acceptance or limits. I don't say that meanly, I say it out of love for him because I truly believe that we ALL deserve to have our needs met. I'm not blaming anyone in the picture. I'm merely being realistic about our situation.
If you view that as blackmail then the truth is that you are equally as unaccepting of an SO who happens to have limits that she can live with. You treat it as a choice. I treat it as a comfort zone for my being.
Big difference.
Kay(SO)
I'm simply telling him what I can and will live with.
Would you have Me be untrue to who I am?
Should I change my true self in order to accomodate the fact that he's a CD'r?
I think it's being missed that what I've been saying is that my feelings just ARE, just as he is a CD'r. I can't help that is how I feel with the limits that I have.
I'm saying too that he has a choice about whether or not he wants to compromise himself. I am simply saying this is me, these are my feelings and I love you but can't live with certain things in my life. If he has to do or be these things then we aren't meant to be together.
The part that hurts me is that you insinuate that we intentionally are out to tell our spouses "my way or get out," and I don't see it that way at all. Or that there is no love lost in our hearts if this becomes our reality after sorting through the overload of feelings that come from finding out that our husband's are indeed crossdressers. For some of us, we do the best we can in accepting and accomodating. I feel that he can try to find someone more suited to his needs and lifestyle if he's not happy with my level of acceptance or limits. I don't say that meanly, I say it out of love for him because I truly believe that we ALL deserve to have our needs met. I'm not blaming anyone in the picture. I'm merely being realistic about our situation.
If you view that as blackmail then the truth is that you are equally as unaccepting of an SO who happens to have limits that she can live with. You treat it as a choice. I treat it as a comfort zone for my being.
Big difference.
Kay(SO)
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Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
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Are we agreed that SO's (yes there are a very few exceptions) in general have a real problem with crossdressing spouses??? An example, my wife knows (knew) that I liked her hair long, not real long but long, yet virtually everytime she had it cut it was cut like her crazy aunt (who incidently hates men and I mean hates all men and yes she is functionally illeterate, her aunt not my wife, well that's questionable too, but that is another story. ) Anyway, it was much, much shorter than I liked and she knew it. Her excuses were it was the beautician's fault or it is just too hot etc. She knew I did not like it that way and it made her look so much like her aunt Betty. It is an appearance issue for me, just like crossdressing is for her! I think she looks rediculous in short short hair. She has never seen Virginia as you know. Did I want to divorce her over it??? NO, I just dealt with it. She came to the house the other day (as you may or may not know she has moved back with her mother) her hair was about the shortest I have seen it and I know she did it because she knows I don't like it! I swear that if I did not respect her wishes, Virginia would stop by her parents home on Saturday on her way to the "Prom/Dance" and give them "an in your face!" look at a beautiful woman! Humm! Her brother and his wife will be there too - humm ! I'll have to think about that 
Anyway I digress, I sincerely believe that if you take the fact that we withhold the fact that we are crossdress from our SO before or after marriage then either are caught or atually come out to them. Almost to a GG here they have expressed their concern over the withholding of this information more so than the crossdressing itsself. That is until that part of us begins to sink in then the situation begins to compound itself and a lot of us end up like Elizabeth, me and nameless others who have not posted in a long time but referenced the fact that crossdressing was the demise of their relationship.
I am not trying to be negative it is just a fact that GG's/SO's just have a major problem with crossdressing and it dose lead to turmult in virtually all relationships!
Love,
Virginia
Anyway I digress, I sincerely believe that if you take the fact that we withhold the fact that we are crossdress from our SO before or after marriage then either are caught or atually come out to them. Almost to a GG here they have expressed their concern over the withholding of this information more so than the crossdressing itsself. That is until that part of us begins to sink in then the situation begins to compound itself and a lot of us end up like Elizabeth, me and nameless others who have not posted in a long time but referenced the fact that crossdressing was the demise of their relationship.
I am not trying to be negative it is just a fact that GG's/SO's just have a major problem with crossdressing and it dose lead to turmult in virtually all relationships!
Love,
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1878
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 3:02 am
Hi girls,
I have tried my hardest not to offend the SO's, but it appears I have failed. I did not intend to make the SO's, particularly those who only learned of thier husbands/boyfriends crossdressing after committing to each other, out to be the bad guy.
Again, I don't beleive the crossdresser who says "accept me as I am or I will leave" is any better than the SO who says "obey these bounderies or I will leave". They are both emotional blackmail.
In fact I don't find blame particularly usefull at all. It is not my intent to say that if only all the SO's could see things my way, we could solve all the problems associated bounderies on crossdressing.
What I am saying is that crossdressing is not a "hobby", it is not an "urge", it is not a "chosen behavior". Crossdressing is a part of who we are. Allow me to attempt an analogy.
Let's say one day your husband comes in and says "I know you think my eyes are brown, but really they are green. They started changing colors in my early teens but I got colored contact lenses and hid the truth from you. But now my eyes have become too irritated and I can not wear contact lenses anymore. You are going to have to accept me with brown eyes"
Is this where the SO other says "well, I can accept it, but I don't want to see it. So you are going to have to wear dark sunglasses when you are around me. And I don't want my family and friends to know you lied to me, and really have brown eyes, so you will have to hide your eyes from them also".
"And I am really turned off with your brown eyes, so don't kiss me, or try to make love to me when your eyes are not coverered up". "Since you lied to me about your eye color, you are going to have to agree to these bounderies, or I just can't stay married to you"
Now I know you are going to say "crossdressing is not socially acceptable, and brown eyes are so it is not a good analogy". But I am only trying to make the point that crossdressing is a state of being and can not be changed, just like eye color. It is not going to go away. We won't stop doing it, if you make it inconvenient. Very few of us have ever been able to dress without a great deal of inconvenience.
You can use our low self esteem against us and get us to agree to bounderies, but you will still know we want to wear women's clothes, and in some way you are trying to prevent us from being what we really are.
What I am saying is that if you really can't live with brown eyes, admit you can not, and just call it. Because in the end, you can't share a life with someone who has to hide from you what they really are.
"No bounderies" is not a sign to hang on the SO's here. It is not a blame game. It is just saying either accept your your crossdresser, or don't. Partial acceptance is also parital non-acceptance. No one can say they have a great relationship with thier SO, and also feel thier SO does not accept them.
That is my opinion, and that is my beleif. Again, I do not want to demean, or appear disrespectful or unsensitive to our SO's here, and I certainly don't beleive they create or control the crossdressing boundery issue. I am only saying that everyone will be better off if there were no imposed bounderies, as I hope my eye color analogy showed why.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I have tried my hardest not to offend the SO's, but it appears I have failed. I did not intend to make the SO's, particularly those who only learned of thier husbands/boyfriends crossdressing after committing to each other, out to be the bad guy.
Again, I don't beleive the crossdresser who says "accept me as I am or I will leave" is any better than the SO who says "obey these bounderies or I will leave". They are both emotional blackmail.
In fact I don't find blame particularly usefull at all. It is not my intent to say that if only all the SO's could see things my way, we could solve all the problems associated bounderies on crossdressing.
What I am saying is that crossdressing is not a "hobby", it is not an "urge", it is not a "chosen behavior". Crossdressing is a part of who we are. Allow me to attempt an analogy.
Let's say one day your husband comes in and says "I know you think my eyes are brown, but really they are green. They started changing colors in my early teens but I got colored contact lenses and hid the truth from you. But now my eyes have become too irritated and I can not wear contact lenses anymore. You are going to have to accept me with brown eyes"
Is this where the SO other says "well, I can accept it, but I don't want to see it. So you are going to have to wear dark sunglasses when you are around me. And I don't want my family and friends to know you lied to me, and really have brown eyes, so you will have to hide your eyes from them also".
"And I am really turned off with your brown eyes, so don't kiss me, or try to make love to me when your eyes are not coverered up". "Since you lied to me about your eye color, you are going to have to agree to these bounderies, or I just can't stay married to you"
Now I know you are going to say "crossdressing is not socially acceptable, and brown eyes are so it is not a good analogy". But I am only trying to make the point that crossdressing is a state of being and can not be changed, just like eye color. It is not going to go away. We won't stop doing it, if you make it inconvenient. Very few of us have ever been able to dress without a great deal of inconvenience.
You can use our low self esteem against us and get us to agree to bounderies, but you will still know we want to wear women's clothes, and in some way you are trying to prevent us from being what we really are.
What I am saying is that if you really can't live with brown eyes, admit you can not, and just call it. Because in the end, you can't share a life with someone who has to hide from you what they really are.
"No bounderies" is not a sign to hang on the SO's here. It is not a blame game. It is just saying either accept your your crossdresser, or don't. Partial acceptance is also parital non-acceptance. No one can say they have a great relationship with thier SO, and also feel thier SO does not accept them.
That is my opinion, and that is my beleif. Again, I do not want to demean, or appear disrespectful or unsensitive to our SO's here, and I certainly don't beleive they create or control the crossdressing boundery issue. I am only saying that everyone will be better off if there were no imposed bounderies, as I hope my eye color analogy showed why.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Elizabeth,
I understand where you're coming from. You and Virginia and a few others here have spoken eloquently of the demise of your marriages because of boundaries.
I guess I'm coming from a different direction, though. My CD'ing never once having been the reason for my own separations (well, maybe once, but not for the reasons you may think), I find it difficult not to see that the SO's stand on firmer ground here than do the crossdressers. Just like you, I don't find the "blame game" a particularly fruitful one, if our aim should be to move on with our lives. But, having said this, I realize that anyone who's committed enough to another person to want to spend the rest of their lives with that person is duty-bound--has a responsibility--to let that person know who they truly are so that that person can make an informed decision as to whether or not to agree to that commitment. Again, I'm not looking to lay blame, here. All I'm saying is that our own behaviour is no less subject to evaluation as is that of our SO.
Here's an analogy of my own: if someone feels they're getting "cheated," in a way, in a game they chose to participate in but in which they, themselves, changed the rules halfway through, I don't think it's fair to suppose that this is entirely their opponent's fault. If you change the rules of a game halfway through that game, you have to give your opponent a chance to adjust to that new set of rules and the option to--as you have--modify those rules. Of course, this is assuming your opponent even wants to continue playing at all.
Now, I realize this analogy isn't very appropriate to relationships, but only because it highlights the idea of adversarial bonds rather than partnerships. One way in which it does work is in getting us to look at relationships as a sort of game, in that it has sets of rules by which both "players" are expected to abide--in this case, honesty, respect, devotion, love, etc. If, at some point in the game, you look at the person sitting across the table from you and say, "I have something important to tell you: I haven't been playing by the rules," well, what can you expect other than discomfiture, disappointment, anger, and, perhaps, a feeling of entitlement on the part of your opponent that, maybe, just maybe, she'd like to implement a few rule changes of her own in order to redress the balance?
As you yourself said, Elizabeth, these are complex issues. It would be wrong to equate our inability to resolve them with a lack of commitment on either part. Rather, as both you and Kay have suggested, we simply come here to matters of basic personality and core identity, beyond which little negotiation is possible (or even desirable). However, I think it's still worth at least trying to negotiate, given that some folks' basic personality and core identity are rather more flexible than those of others. Basic personality and core identity don't change (or change very little) over time. As such, it's hard to say, "this is a flaw," or, "that is a failing." No, it just is. "This is who I am" (or, "this is who he or she is"). The best we can hope for is that, once a crossdresser has finally revealed his true self to his spouse, both he and his spouse are possessed of a flexible enough basic personality and core identity that they'll be able to at least agree to try to work it out. If not, separation is a choice to be considered. Not a very palatable one, but it's there.
You know, there no bad guys here. I see it on this very forum. Some relationships have not managed to survive the revelation and some have; some people have found a greater bliss because of this revelation and some have been put through hell (and, yes, I definitely include CD's here). None are at fault. We do the best we can with who we are. This is true of CD'S and it's also true of SO's. Blame won't solve anything... either an SO blaming her mate for having been dishonest with her or a CD blaming his mate for not being able (I don't mean willing, I mean able) to take the ball and run with it.
That you feel, Elizabeth, that there can be no negotitation with a spouse who isn't completely encouraging of who you are isn't a "bad" thing (any more than is Kay's unwillingness to have the limits of her own being and life transgressed and violated). This, to me, seems like one of those instances where two people are referring to the same thing but in a different language.
I guess we'd do well to remember that, aside from explicit exceptions, emotional blackmail can certainly feel that way to a sensitive person (and any one of us who's become fiercely protective of our battered identities is sensitive, in a way) even though it's not intented to be.
Love,
CJ
Elizabeth,
I understand where you're coming from. You and Virginia and a few others here have spoken eloquently of the demise of your marriages because of boundaries.
I guess I'm coming from a different direction, though. My CD'ing never once having been the reason for my own separations (well, maybe once, but not for the reasons you may think), I find it difficult not to see that the SO's stand on firmer ground here than do the crossdressers. Just like you, I don't find the "blame game" a particularly fruitful one, if our aim should be to move on with our lives. But, having said this, I realize that anyone who's committed enough to another person to want to spend the rest of their lives with that person is duty-bound--has a responsibility--to let that person know who they truly are so that that person can make an informed decision as to whether or not to agree to that commitment. Again, I'm not looking to lay blame, here. All I'm saying is that our own behaviour is no less subject to evaluation as is that of our SO.
Here's an analogy of my own: if someone feels they're getting "cheated," in a way, in a game they chose to participate in but in which they, themselves, changed the rules halfway through, I don't think it's fair to suppose that this is entirely their opponent's fault. If you change the rules of a game halfway through that game, you have to give your opponent a chance to adjust to that new set of rules and the option to--as you have--modify those rules. Of course, this is assuming your opponent even wants to continue playing at all.
Now, I realize this analogy isn't very appropriate to relationships, but only because it highlights the idea of adversarial bonds rather than partnerships. One way in which it does work is in getting us to look at relationships as a sort of game, in that it has sets of rules by which both "players" are expected to abide--in this case, honesty, respect, devotion, love, etc. If, at some point in the game, you look at the person sitting across the table from you and say, "I have something important to tell you: I haven't been playing by the rules," well, what can you expect other than discomfiture, disappointment, anger, and, perhaps, a feeling of entitlement on the part of your opponent that, maybe, just maybe, she'd like to implement a few rule changes of her own in order to redress the balance?
As you yourself said, Elizabeth, these are complex issues. It would be wrong to equate our inability to resolve them with a lack of commitment on either part. Rather, as both you and Kay have suggested, we simply come here to matters of basic personality and core identity, beyond which little negotiation is possible (or even desirable). However, I think it's still worth at least trying to negotiate, given that some folks' basic personality and core identity are rather more flexible than those of others. Basic personality and core identity don't change (or change very little) over time. As such, it's hard to say, "this is a flaw," or, "that is a failing." No, it just is. "This is who I am" (or, "this is who he or she is"). The best we can hope for is that, once a crossdresser has finally revealed his true self to his spouse, both he and his spouse are possessed of a flexible enough basic personality and core identity that they'll be able to at least agree to try to work it out. If not, separation is a choice to be considered. Not a very palatable one, but it's there.
You know, there no bad guys here. I see it on this very forum. Some relationships have not managed to survive the revelation and some have; some people have found a greater bliss because of this revelation and some have been put through hell (and, yes, I definitely include CD's here). None are at fault. We do the best we can with who we are. This is true of CD'S and it's also true of SO's. Blame won't solve anything... either an SO blaming her mate for having been dishonest with her or a CD blaming his mate for not being able (I don't mean willing, I mean able) to take the ball and run with it.
That you feel, Elizabeth, that there can be no negotitation with a spouse who isn't completely encouraging of who you are isn't a "bad" thing (any more than is Kay's unwillingness to have the limits of her own being and life transgressed and violated). This, to me, seems like one of those instances where two people are referring to the same thing but in a different language.
I guess we'd do well to remember that, aside from explicit exceptions, emotional blackmail can certainly feel that way to a sensitive person (and any one of us who's become fiercely protective of our battered identities is sensitive, in a way) even though it's not intented to be.
Love,
CJ
