Self esteem, Bounderies, and who really wears the pants.

[Jennifer]

Thanks Darlene but I have not felt left out, quite the contrary, I felt I had to say something even though my relationship with my wife is one of the rare ones. I have been close to tears reading all this and believe me I understand it all. It has been stated that this thread should be required reading for all couples dealing with this and I couldn't agree more. What I have is what so many are striving for, for me there was no magic formula beyond mutual respect and that's the bottom line of this whole thread. Love you all.

[Kay(SO)]

I have to back track once here because I've been out of town and I missed this one.

Elizabeth wrote:

No, you should not. And if you really can not live with it, you should divorce. If you can't accept the truth about your crossdresser, if what he is , is unacceptable to you, you should just break up. Forcing him to continue to hide who he is, from you, or others as a condition of the relationship can not be healthy. And in my opinion, will lead to resentment for both of you.

I didn't say I couldn't live with it. What I said was, there are certain aspects of it I couldn't live with.

I would never force him to hide. He chooses to. I have in fact encouraged him to get out, make friends, for us to friends with other couples, taught him how to put on makeup, helped update his wardrobe and worked with his self-esteem and confidence so he could walk down Bourban Street in New Orleans and play in the MGM Grand casino. So why would I want to divorce him simply because there are aspects of who he is that I have difficulty with? He has difficulty with the fact that I was abused, am a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, gained about 40 lbs since we got married, had breast cancer surgery, have OCD, ADHD, anxiety and depression. He sets certain limits in our home to remain comfortable with some of these things that are a part of what make up ME. If I slip up and forget about a limit he isn't running off to divorce me. We simply talk about it and work it out through negotiations.

I believe that we can meet each other's needs without having it turn into black and white thinking. We do it all the time. I have never told him he can't dress or be who he is. He's a big boy and can make his own choices about how he wants to live his life and it's up to him to do so.

I do feel bad for anyone who isn't healthy enough to take care of themselves emotionally and lives with an SO who refuses to allow them to be or feel whole. I don't see my limits as forcing him to live my way. He still gets to make the choice. Not about being a CD'r but about negotiating certain behaviors related to Cding.

I give up trying to explain myself. My husband is grateful to have me in is life, he is comfortable with my limits, level of acceptance and love and doesn't feel that I am impeding him from being who he truly is. I guess that's all that should matter to me. Thanks for listening.

Kay(SO)

[Loretta Ann]

Hello Kay,

It appears to me that you are taking this kind of personally, I do not read Elizabeth’s comments, as being directed to you personally. In short I do not think Elizabeth sees you as one of the women she is talking about. You seem to have taken that upon yourself. My opinion of you has been very different than my opinion of his ex wife.

However she has painted a picture that is very real to many. And for those who have gone through things like Elizabeth, myself, and what Virginia is in the process of going through, come out of it learning some very hard lessons, that we are not about to forget.

These lessons we have learned can help others who are in similar situations as the ones we have gone through. If the picture that is being presented in this thread does not fit your situation. Why is there a need to explain yourself?

You have the admiration of many here. I do not understand the need for a defense. It does not help you.

A lot of what you both have said here seems to me that you have been saying the same thing. Perhaps in a somewhat different way.

Elizabeth would not have the kind of relationship she has with Raven if she was out to lunch on this. She has gone out of her way in this thread not to offend anyone. I personally do not see how she could have said what she felt needed to be said much better than she did. She was strong in the way she said it, but for those who are caught in a similar situation it needs to be said very strongly, and very clearly.

Peace,
Darlene.

[Terri(SO)]

Elizabeth is talking very specifically to and about the SOs responding to this thread . . .
"It would seem that "love" does not play a part in this formula, at least what I read from the SO's

But exercising that right would also mean that I would move on to someone who would be willing to do what I need to be satisfied.

If he wants to be with me, this is how I feel and what my limits are.

Gone is the "for better or worse", gone is love. To me this is emotional blackmail. It uses the love of the crossdresser against him, by making him choose between giving into the demands of his SO, or getting kicked to the curb.

Both SO's seem to have no emotional ties to thier CDer's at all."

That is why Kay is taking this personally. Because certain CDs have had a failed marriage, to them all women who are not "100% accepting" (which I read as not having any needs of her own or if she has any is not stating them) are unfeeling [w]itches. Which is completely untrue.
T.

[Loretta Ann]

That is why Kay is taking this personally. Because certain CDs have had a failed marriage, to them all women who are not "100% accepting" (which I read as not having any needs of her own or if she has any is not stating them) are unfeeling [w]itches. Which is completely untrue.

Terri,

This thread has suddenly turned nasty (someone’s emotions are in a twister) and I will not be a part of this kind of nonsense. I am not about to stick around for any kind of an argument.

I will leave that to those who feel they are wiser than I.

This is the precise reason that I am so glad I decided to remain single. This is also the precise reason for a CD section that is private.


Darlene.

[Kay(SO)]

Darlene,

Elizabeth DID directly speak to me. She used my name in stating the below quote: Elizabeth wrote:

No, you should not. And if you really can not live with it, you should divorce. If you can't accept the truth about your crossdresser, if what he is , is unacceptable to you, you should just break up. Forcing him to continue to hide who he is, from you, or others as a condition of the relationship can not be healthy. And in my opinion, will lead to resentment for both of you.

Telling me basically that if I'm not 100% accepting of my husband's CDing then I need to get divorced because we're going to end up resenting each other. The truth is, my husband is quite happy and comfortable with someone in his life willing to do all the things I do in relation to his CDing.

I understand the hurt that has been experienced here due to the disallowance of some CD'rs to be and feel whole due to their SO's saying stuff like, " Well, I don't care if you dress as long as I don't have to see it," or " Don't dress in the bedroom or kiss me while you're dressed." That much I follow.

What I don't follow is the part where if I'm uncomfortable with having sex with my man dressed why I'm squashing his ability to be whole, when this is something that has never been in our relationship prior to his coming out to me and clearing his conscience or deciding that he needs to now show me who he really is. (And this is not my own relationship description). Why am I supposed to just be okay with it and say, "oh honey, I love you just the way you are and come on into our bed. I'll change who I am so you can feel whole. I'll be the man, I'll be uncomfortable because afterall, I love you. Where's the acceptance for me and how I feel?

Acceptance is a two way street.

Not accepting that an SO has limits is the same thing as not accepting CDing.

Can I help how I feel or who I am? No, just like he can't. And I'm taking it personally because not everyone is like the ex-wives or current wives who have used emotional black mail and set limits that stopped a CDing spouse from being whole or who he is.

That was my point all along.

I'm not telling Elizabeth to feel one way or the other.

I'm simply defending my own right to feel the way that I do as well.

Kay(SO)

[Kay(SO)]

To All,

I've not gotten my underwear in a bunch so to speak and don't feel angry to the point of blasting anyone. As I stated earlier it's just frustration. I think we've been able to discuss this topic quite fairly under the circumstances.

I have no hard feelings toward Elizabeth or anyone here and I just wanted to toss that out there. I think these discussions are necessary so that we can come to new enlightened understandings of each other.

I hate to run but I need to say that I'm going to Vegas in two days and I'm not sure what time I'll have to pop back on here. I'll try to peek in tomorrow morning and then we're off on Sat. Can't wait!

The weird thing is that sweetie usually uses this trip (we go every year) to go out on the town and play (what he and I call when he dresses and we go out) but he didn't want to deal with lugging the semi full of clothes, makeup, shoes, wigs, etc.. plus take 6 hours to remove all of his hair. He said that it would be more stressful than it would just to relax by the pool and gamble. So, I'm not sure but I think he isn't taking anything with him for dressing. Weird. It will be the first time.

Anyhoo, hugs to all.

Kay(SO)

[Loretta Ann]

Elizabeth wrote:

No, you should not. And if you really can not live with it, you should divorce. If you can't accept the truth about your cross dresser, if what he is, is unacceptable to you, you should just break up. Forcing him to continue to hide who he is, from you, or others as a condition of the relationship can not be healthy. And in my opinion, will lead to resentment for both of you.

Kay wrote:

My husband loves me. Is he sacrificing who he truly is by staying with me, knowing my limits? No, because he doesn't want to or have an interest in doing those things I've mentioned anyway. Therefore, his perspective is that for the first time in his life, someone does accept him wholly and completely. And he is grateful for it. If he were suppressing these things and they were part of who is truly is, I would insist that he go live his life the way he needs to and be free of our marriage. I will not be responsible for his unhappiness.

The way I read that Kay is that you are on the same page.

Telling me basically that if I'm not 100% accepting of my husband's CDing then I need to get divorced because we're going to end up resenting each other.

Kay,

I did not read Elizabeth as telling you that. I read her as telling you that if that is the situation. (Not that it was or is the situation in your particular case.) I read her that way also by what I know of her. That kind of thing is not characteristic of her. I have found her to be far more loving and caring than that. Like you she has built up a lot of credibility here.

I would think that had you asked her for clarification about what she said, she would have been more than willing to clear things up. And I suspect she will be along soon to do that. If she is not to put off about where this could lead to.

Respectfully,
Darlene.

PS. Wishing you a happy holiday.

[Virginia]

Kay, Thanks for being there for us and I hope you enjoy your trip to Vegas. It is, as they say, "A nice place to visit, but I would not want to live there." definitely an exciting town!
Anyway, I can not speak for Elizabeth, but in this girl's humble opinion, when you referenced, porn on the internet and strap-ons, etc, I fall back on my MY statement that I quesiton some folks who claim to be crossdressers and I don't want to dwell on that definition. What I am trying to say is that is I were an SO and my spouse was "dressed" sitting at the computer, corresponding with porn sites and then getting turned on and approaching me - it would be "Say good night - Charlie! You ain't commin no where near me until a shrink release you from a padded cell." And yes those are bounderies, hell, I would put up a block wall until my attorney could take over! This is why this thread is soooo important. For one thing is says you have got to know your SO and the only way that happens is talking, talking, and more talking - about anything and everything. I hate to bring up my situation, but I will. My wife would come home and I would ask how her day went "OK, I guess." anything exciting happen? "No not really." Then two minutes later she would be on the phone to her mother who lives about three miles away telling her all the gossip and dirt and everything that happened that day and they would talk for 45 minutes to two + hours. This was not just once in a while but virtually every night! I sincerely wanted to hear what went on and be a part of it and this was even before I discovered Virginia. Sorry, guess I am just unique in that when she was born, they never "cut the cord" and now I am the recepiant of it just not streaching enought to include me.
Finally, taking Kay's side and I guess it can be a matter of symantics, there are certain things in a relationship that demand bounderies if one or the other party is infringing on the other's senseabilities, i.e., porn, dresssing 24/7; strap-ons; coming to bed "dressed." However I still maintain that it is a rare breed that is 100% accepting and if it ain't 100% then even subconsciously bounderies are being set!
Love ya all,
Virginia

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

First let me say that I don't see this as me against Kay or me against Terri. I am presenting things how I see them, and they are presenting things how they see them. I can not speak for them because I am not in thier situation, and in fact I am grateful they are willing to express thier views here in such an open way. These are not easy things to talk about.

I have tried to make it clear that I don't oppose all bounderies, only those imposed by one of the partners, and this worka both ways. I only oppose those limits that are imposed with emotional blackmail, which obviously does not apply to either Kay(SO)'s or Terri(SO)'s situation.

Elizabeth wrote:

Hi girls,

I just want to clarify what I mean when I say "bounderies". Bounderies in the way I mean it is:

1. A crossdressing boundery

2. The use of emotional blackmail to compel the crossdresser to comply, i.e. "If you don't do this, [I won't like you anymore]".

Love always,
Elizabeth

All I am saying is that there are going to be more marriages that don't survive this, than do. Because it is just really difficult to accept this kind of thing. A SO has to be willing to give up a lot to accept this. And of course I speak of those who did not marry with full disclosure.

Considering the social taboo of crossdressing, it is embarassing for a SO to have to tell her family and friends that her once "ideal" man has turned out to be less than Ideal, and indeed lied to her, perhaps for a very long time. I mean, it has to be. It was embarassing telling my own friends and family.

In my honest opinion, any marriage where it becomes necessary for either party to impose bounderies on the other with emotional blackmail, the marriage is doomed.

This thread is only an extention of that thought. If you are a SO and your husbands behavior bothers you to a point that you can not be happy and he can not accept bounderies without being forced to accept them with emotional blackmail, it's a doomed relationship. imho.

For those couples who can reach agreement and both partners feel good with thier deal, well....... that is what marriage is all about..

I hope I have clarified my position. I don't desire to frustrate anyone, or appear to not have listened to or considered thier point of view. In fact I beleive it is crucial to have the SO's in this discussion. That input is of very little value if I don't even consider it., but I have tried to avoid speaking for the SO's point of view.

Again,, thanks for keeping this discussion civil, even though it is very serious, and emotional to talk about.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Beauty]

Hi there,

I recommend strongly (but I'm not your parent so I can't make you) that we all should do our absolute best to let people speak for themselves. In my opinion the thread went south when people started defending other people's positions.

Prior to this everyone had been just stating their feelings and others would respond. People had also been going out of their way to make sure everyone else knew they were just saying what was on their minds, but didn't mean to offend anyone.

This thread is too close to the (could get ugly) line to speak for someone else. You can do what you want naturally, but I wasn't here yesterday and so I first read Kay's post and was like, "Cool, people are still saying what they feel." and then I read Darlene defending Elizabeth, and I was like, "Uh oh" then I read Terri defending Kay, then I read Darlene defending herself, then I read Kay defending herself, I read Kay doing what she always does (being very cool and bringing the thread back), then I read Darlene defending Elizabeth, then I read Virginia set the record straight and put the thread back on track, then I read Elizabeth state truths about the way she felt that made the whole defending part of this thread unnecessary because they were miscommunications.

Thanks for everyone putting their calm hats on and getting through this. Please going forward try to not speak for someone. The wise thing to do would be to PM the person you're defending and find out if you're even correct. As we can see from Elizabeth's response the whole middle part of icky'ness could have been avoided.

Kay, Elizabeth, and Virginia great job. You've been very clear and are doing your best to keep the peace while still stating your opinions. I love it and I love you all! = )

Beauty

[Beauty]

Beauty wrote:

So I don't think it's true that most aren't accepting. I think their boundaries are more than acceptable because it's what they are honest about.

I don't recall saying that most SO's are unaccepting, but if I gave that impression it is because it is a perception of mine. . .

. . .

Love always,
Elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth,

Sorry about that. I didn't mean to imply you were saying that. I was just saying it as a general statement.

Thanks for being so open and honest hear. It's over refreshing.

I apologize about that, I should have put in wording that would have let you know I didn't think you were saying that. After I read the way you read it I felt really bad about it. I'm sorry. I hope you can accept my apology.

Read you soon.

Beauty

[Kay(SO)]

Elizabeth,

Your last post was the best! It was clear and concise not to mention caring toward all. It made more sense to me about what you meant in the first place so I thank you for clearing it up.

I think you are right about in the long run, any marriage with strict limitations where one or both parties are feeling unhappy due to these restrictions, being doomed eventually.

As a therapist I see all the time however so many sticking with the marriage and being miserable. They stay for a variety of reasons; low self-esteem, fear, the kids, the dog... most of the time it boils down the fear. Fear of being alone, of never been loved again, of someone finding out the truth about them...etc...and I don't just mean CDing.

Anyhoo, I've got to run to the dentist of all things before my trip so I'm off for now. Good post and I didn't really see our banter (for lack of a better word) as US against THEM either. I know that you were merely trying to express your view from your own experience, just like I was.

Here's to finding peace and happiness for all of us, whatever that means.

Hugs to you,

Kay(SO)

[Paige]

LOVE COMPASSION UNDERSTANDING


Love,
Paige

[Loretta Ann]

Yay!!!! Harmony Sweet Blissful Harmony.