Shame and Embarrassment

A 'round table' for CDs, TGs and GG/SOs to talk with each other. We're all in this together, so let's make the most of it.

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CJ
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

This is turning out to be a fun thread, even though Stacey may have had more serious matters on her mind when she started it. She was looking for comments from SO's on how they overcame the shame and embarrassment that arises out of their DH's crossdressing. Some posts here have addressed this. Inevitably, with this kind of thing, discussion turns to the nature of shame and embarrassment itself. And that may not be a bad thing. Hopefully, more SO's will chime in with their own views on the subject.

Georgia,

Thanks for the compliment. I love writing, I do. But the appeal of a regular paycheck is just too strong for me to think of writing as anything other than a passion and a personal pleasure.

About our little semantic hair-splitting regarding the word "lifestyle," I agree with you; a lifestyle is the kind of life you choose for yourself based on your needs and drives. Still, the thought that compulsion or necessity are only vaguely hinted at in the notion of choice leaves me uneasy. If a lifestyle is matched (or not) to someone's, uh, personal constitution, then we could say that a blue-eyed person is free to choose (or not) to live the lifestyle of a blue-eyed person. While this isn't as absurd as it may at first sound (there are such things as contact lenses, for example), it occults the fact that, regardless of whatever prosthetic sleight-of-hand a person engages in in order to mask her blue-eyedness, she remains a blue-eyed person. Now, I realize that you're referring to emotional and psychological constitution (needs and drives) and not to a person's physical constitution, but the principle applies nonetheless if we believe that some psychological needs are as grounded in some unalterable reality as are most physical ones. I believe that gender identity is one such instance of an unalterable psychological constitution. That a transgendered identity is resistant to modification through therapy only supports this belief.

You can choose to wear this or that item of gender-appropriate or gender-inappropriate clothing; you cannot choose to be a man with feminine drives or a woman with masculine ones. And those that so choose do so primarily out of some other drive than the expression of their gender identity, it seems to me.

Again, though, I understand what you're saying, Georgia, and the examples you use from your own life are very well suited to this discussion. When you say that you'd go mad if you had to live a life similar to what you knew growing up, it very much sounds like what a transgendered person may say to himself. But the similarity stops there, I think. In the case of a transgendered person, there are no instances where this kind of madness-inducing pressure may be lessened, short of the necessary expression of a gender identity considered deviant by many, if not most. And this is our cross to bear, that we have madness-inducing pressure coming both from inside ourselves as well as from outside.

As you suggest, though, some TG'd individuals may be successful in living a life where even a slight allowance in the expression of their gender identity may serve to relieve some of the pressure they feel because of their needs and drives. In everyone's life, there are positives and there are negatives. It's up to us to juggle with these and find some balance; we do that by choosing whatever kind of life it is that we do choose for ourselves. We have no argument there, you and I. I'm merely suggesting that there are limits to choice.

Choosing implies access to some type of free will. As I stated above, I'm not entirely convinced that a person's psychosexual needs and drives fall under the purview of free will. If this were the case, I'd guarantee you we'd find far less sexual deviance than we do now--social pressures, taboos, and conventions are much more powerful than we often suppose; the "need" and "drive" we all have to conform is not innate... it begins when we first encounter the word "No!" in our lives.

On another level, there are limits to choice in the very objects of our choices. If you think A would make you happier than B (in a world where both A and B are acceptable choices), then, by all means, choose A. However, the choice is not so clear in a case where A is considered unacceptable (or shameful or embarrassing) by others; in other words, if the choices we make are for the purpose of aligning our lives with our deeper needs and drives (in your case, Georgia, to be a self-employed writer with a bohemian penchant), we have to be given an option where it's possible to do so. And, well, if we're not given such an option, we either truly go mad or, assuming we're strong enough to do so, we create that option--a singularly tough proposition in a world that shuns diversity, difference, and eccentricity.

Anyway, one thing I can say for sure is that I'm very glad you chose to join this forum and have these conversations with us. 8) A little communication, a little speaking and a little listening, go a long way to open up the way for those who crave living in a world where all are free to choose the shape of their lives.

Sunny,

Please step right this way... into the cloning machine. :P Seriously, your attitude is a blast of fresh air. I know that there are many, many difficulties in being partnered to someone whose gender identity is unconventional and I know it's of no use to anyone to gloss over those difficulties. It's been a tremendous pleasure for me to be able to have conversations with a few of the SO's on this forum--from all points on the "acceptance" spectrum--and I've occasionally fancied myself a champion of their cause (their cause being: "I simply want to be heard and acknowledged in my feelings about this.") but I'll admit that, even though I don't play favorites, there are times when I say to myself, "Damn! We need some more of that!" My own criteria for so saying are few (and they apply to the CD's as well as to the SO's): sensitivity, openness, emotional honesty, intelligence, and what we call, in French, la beauté dans l'âme, "beauty in the soul."

Basically: I enjoy reading your posts. :mrgreen:

Love,
CJ
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Lydia
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Post by Lydia »

Hi CJ,

I agree with Georgia - you should write professionally. You have no idea how much I enjoy reading your posts - I call them essays. I envy your writing ability and your style. My style is dearily pedantic - as I found in my sorry attempts at creative writing. It occurred to me that you could assemble all your essays into a book.

Please don't stop.

Hugs,

Lydia
"There comes a time ... when you must grasp the bull by the tail and face the situation."
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Post by Georgia(SO) »

Hi CJ,

I was thinking about what you wrote last night and it dawned on me that you and I are examining the word, and context, of "lifestyle" from two vastly different perspectives. You are hearing it from the perspective of a TG'd person who remains TG'd, whether you present as a man or woman.

I, however, am hearing (and using) it from the perspective of a non-TG'd person who chooses to live with and participate in the lifestyle of an uncloseted TG'd person.

So, basically I agree with you from your point of view. "Lifestyle" does not reflect the basic tenet that you are TG'd, no matter what you are wearing or how you present.

OTOH, for me it is a matter of choice whether I want to live with a man who presents as a woman. For me, it is participation in a lifestyle that is not of my choosing. For example, if I never knew that he was a CD, it would not change whether he was or not. But it would change, not necessarily how I feel about him as a human being, but how we interact and how our life together works on a daily basis. Likewise, the fact that he will present as a woman about 25% of the time, and that there are other aspects of the TG'd experience that will be part of our life about 15% of the time, then, yes, it does make for a "lifestyle choice" for me.

Among the reasons that it was important to me to address this issue here was because sometimes both the CDs and the SOs start to sound as if they they think are the only ones who face choices about conforming to societal norms and the truth is simply that they are not. There are about umpteen million ways to not fit with the societal norm and still be a fine upstanding citizen. (Let's leave out the criminal element for this discussion). And I think it is important for both TG'd and non-TG'd SO's to recognize that the fundamental experiences of society's reaction to the breaking of the societal norm is pretty much the same regardless of whether the break falls along gender identification, sexual preference, religious beliefs (try being Wicca in the Army...), political beliefs (try being a Humbert Humphrey liberal in Mississippi or Texas), etc., etc., etc.

The bottom line is that society, as a whole, doesn't particularly like those who break the societal norm and with that is going to come the sort of abuse that is often heaped on ya'll - but it is not just TG'd people who will experience it. I would assume that in cultures which elevate TG'd people, something else is considered to be anti-social behavior.

For example, I used to live in Texas. Grew up in a fundmentally WASP environment, where something as "wierd" as Wicca would have been run out on a rail. Moved to the Austin area some time back, to a small community that was quite heavily into Wicca and other similar beliefs. As an admitted Christian, they damn near ran me out on a rail. Same person, different setting, very different societal reactions. Ditto try being very straight (but not homophobic) in a gay bar.

My point here (and I did have one when I started) is that non-TG'd SOs make a choice as to whether they want to participate in the TG lifestyle. And I think that SOs need to know it's ok if that doesn't work for them. No, I'm not going to support someone who treats her husband poorly or calls him names or says she's "ashamed" of him - or who thinks she has the right to say whether he can or cannot put that dress on. But if, after thinking about it, she decides that it just doesn't work for her and chooses to leave, she should not be automatically labeled "unaccepting" or narrow-minded or anything else like that. It IS a lifestyle choice for her and if it doesn't work for her, then she should be emotionally free to choose something, and someone, else.

And frankly, if these SOs do not have the opportunity to say "No, this doesn't work for me," then they cannot say "Yes, I will stay even if I don't particularly enjoy this part."

-g(so)
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Post by SilverLady(SO) »

Georgia(SO) wrote:My point here (and I did have one when I started) is that non-TG'd SOs make a choice as to whether they want to participate in the TG lifestyle. And I think that SOs need to know it's ok if that doesn't work for them. No, I'm not going to support someone who treats her husband poorly or calls him names or says she's "ashamed" of him - or who thinks she has the right to say whether he can or cannot put that dress on. But if, after thinking about it, she decides that it just doesn't work for her and chooses to leave, she should not be automatically labeled "unaccepting" or narrow-minded or anything else like that. It IS a lifestyle choice for her and if it doesn't work for her, then she should be emotionally free to choose something, and someone, else.

And frankly, if these SOs do not have the opportunity to say "No, this doesn't work for me," then they cannot say "Yes, I will stay even if I don't particularly enjoy this part."
Wow, Georgia - I so agree with what you have written, especially the section quoted above! =D>

Yes, it is a 'lifestyle' choice for the non-TG'd SO - and one that I have gladly chosen to live with Virginia because I completely love and accept both Virginia and her male alter ego.


(--)

- SL
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CJ
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Georgia,

True, all true. I totally agree with you. 8)

Well, now that that's cleared up, where's the party? :P

Love,
CJ
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Georgia(SO)
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Post by Georgia(SO) »

Party? There's a Party????? kewl...

-g(so), who's glad she's here too!
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Post by KathyB »

This is one of those times when I wish I had CJ's writing ability to help express my deep emotional feelings on the issue. I'd like to go back to Stacey's original post, because shame and embarrassment were such heavy influences on my developmental years. Growing up French Catholic in southwest Louisiana was not an easy life for a young boy who wanted to dress like all the grown-up ladies did. Shame was an inherent part of my Catholic up-bringing, "we are not worthy" and all that. Even after I was an adult living on my own, events of cross-dressing brought with them the inevitable guilt and shame of possible exposure and embarrassment afterwards. It wasn't until I finally rejected my mother's feelings of guilt and shame that I could accept and love myself for who I was - a cross-dresser.

This has a lot to do with being married, and my situation in particular. When you love someone who is significantly "different", your behavior shows everyone else how secure you are and how deeply you love your partner. Whether they are handicapped, gay, bald, bisexual, mixed-race, large, small, wear clown noses (Hi, Sunny!!) or are transgendered, it doesn't matter. If you truly love them, who they are and what they do doesn't matter. Their behavior reflects on no one but THEM. That you choose to be their partner says more about your love for them than it does about their behavior reflecting on you. Although two people are partners, they are still unique individuals.

My SO seems to think anything (actually EVERYTHING) I do is all about her. If I wear earrings to work, she's embarrassed because she fixates on what other people might say to me (or even worse, THINK about me.) Frankly, noone has ever said anything when I've worn earrings or mascara to work. Noone ever mentioned my eyebrows are shaped and trimmed. My friends at work who have known me for nine years are intelligent enough to either say something nice, or not say anything at all. It's completely a non-issue for me. But my SO has a problem because she's stuck in an adolescent phase where everything I do is a reflection on her. She still cares desperately what her alcoholic mother thinks and says to her, despite years of her mother's verbal and psychological abuse. Her fear and immaturity drive her self-centered and embarrassed view of everything happening around her. She's terrified of her own shame and embarrassment if the neighbors or her mother or brother found out about my cross-dressing.

I frankly don't care; shame and embarrassment are my SO's baggage, not mine. I dumped those wasteful and negative feelings and habits years ago, and I'm a better person for it. In my humble opinion: fear, shame, and embarrassment are horrible wastes of our psychological and emotional energy. They are negative feelings that restrict us. Security, maturity, and responsibility are far more constructive and useful feelings. They enable us to do more and be happy at the same time.
Formerly called Zippy
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Georgia(SO)
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Post by Georgia(SO) »

Zippy,

hugs--
-g(so)
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CJ
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Post by CJ »

Well said, Zippy! Well said! =D>

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CJ
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Virginia
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Post by Virginia »

I am tired, it has been an interesting day, so I will be shallow, well, very shallow - Zippy talks of shame, embarrasment and fear. We will just see how those attributes work when we drag her off to Purgatory in June!! :shock:

Virginia
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Post by SilverLady(SO) »

I agree - well said, Zippy, well said!! =D> =D>

Love ya, girlfriend!

- SL
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Post by Stacey »

Thank you everyone for your kind and thoughtful responses. Yes, this is a journey that neither of us have before traveled, and I guess we are having to figure it out as we go. There are many happy moments and unfortunately some not so happy. Not all of course have to do with TG issues, but the ones that do definitely are confounding.
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