CD/TG & Christianity

[GiniMacRae]

If you're a GG Christian in a relationship with a Christian CD/TG BG, how do you "make it work" in regards to your faith???

[Absaroka]

I'm a male Christian. But I think the basic thread of Christianity helps address a great many issues.

Some feel that there is no conflict between crossdressing and Christianity. There is an example somewhere here in the forums of the passage in the Bible saying men should not wear womens clothing and how it is subject to some very different interpretations if one goes back to the original Hebrew. It would appear that it is more about who should be asked to put on the clothing of the warrior I believe.

But I'm going to assume that believe there is a conflict between Christianity and crossdressing. So I'll present you with another conflict. I apologize in advance for the fire and brimstone.

No less an authority than Jesus Himself says that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven. And on the day of judgement He will pick out those who are to go to hell, and He will say " I was hungry and you did not feed me" and elaborate that whenever you did not feed another person who was hungry you did not feed Him.

I suspect that you have money in the bank and that you are not using it to feed the hungry, comfort the sick, visit those in prison, or do other good works. Probably as a Christian you do some good works. But when you see a homeless drunk do you take him into your home, wash him and feed him, trusting God to keep you from any possible harm? Even if you have done this at times there are probably many times you have not. And not only that you probably intend to not do it again tomorrow! And you probably aren't even sorry or showing repentance or asking forgiveness for your selfishness and disobedience. And if you think it would be an unsafe thing to do you probably haven't asked God to forgive you for doubting that He will either protect you, or let you die because in His wisdom He knows that death while attempting to be kind is a virtuous death. After all He has already decreed that we WILL leave this Earth. It's just a question of when, which would seem to be an interesting question to Someone who is eternal.

So I guess we can agree that you are living an unChristian life and not repenting of it and that unless you are forgiven in spite of your imperfect repentance that you are going to hell when you die. And the same is true of me and I too am a Christian.

But, you say, God knows that we are sinful and forgives us. In fact He sent Jesus here to save us. And we are forgiven our sin and imperfection because we are Christians. And I would agree with you completely.

So I will ask you, if you believe that God will forgive us for not feeding our hungry neighbors, and by this I mean doing all in our power to do so, becoming another Mother Theresa (and after all even she was sinful and in need of forgiveness) and that God will forgive our lack of true repentance about this, since we don't intend to give up all tomorrow to devote yourself entirely to helping the hundred of millions of starving people in this world, then don't you think that the same God who is eager to forgive us for so blatantly defying His commandment will also be equally eager to forgive someone who intends to continue what is a far more ambiguous and far less strongly put law about what to wear? Go back to the New Testament and read about judgement day again. Not a word in that passage about what people were wearing although we could extrapolate I think to giving your clothes to the naked and cold......

Okay so now perhaps it may be clear that even if cross dressing is a sin(which is open to doubt) it is probably less important than all the money you spent on this computer you are looking at which did not go to feed the hungry etc. It's probably less of a sin than giving someone the finger when they cut you off on the highway. And as for the idea that the real sin is disobeidience or lack of faith, that's as true of any other sin we might have. Remember that when you think an angry thought about someone you are as guilty as a murderer.....Jesus said that also.

I guess my point is that a central tenet of Christianity is that we are all in need of God's forgiveness. So you might ask yourself why crossdressing is singled out (or so many other sexual things) and so many others are not.

I don't mean to sound judgemental or harsh here. I am not saying that anyone is going to hell for what they do-first of all it is not up to me to say such a thing and 2nd of all I can't see how a God who loves and forgives us is going to punish us for eternity for even heinous crimes in this infinitely short life, let alone for what we wear. I am however trying to strongly make the point that leaders of organized religion (and yes I also know the idea that Christianity is not a religion because religion is about belief and Christianity is about the truth) get awfully selective about what they pick and choose from among their own teachings.

I hope this is helpful to you in sorting out how you might feel towards someone whos adherance to your religious beliefs is less than perfect. And I am not being sarcastic with that last sentance. It's just my belief that he is just that: less than perfect. Like all of us.

Absaroka

Going back later I realize that this thread was posted by a crossdresser, not an SO. My first reaction to it was thus incorrect; I had thought it was from a Christian SO asking for help about this rather than a CD asking about help for an SO. Sorry. Also I realize that I have expounded long and loud about religion here which is a great way to start a food fight. So Ms Moderator if you wish to move it to Hot Topics or delete it please be my guest although I'd appreciate a PM about it.

[SilverLady(SO)]

Hmmmm..... what an interesting and well-written response, Absaroka! Although I am a Christian (and a life-long member of the LC-MS, actually), I could never quote or give biblical references such as you have done. Thank you for providing me with the "fuel" to counter any negative comments from those in the "Religious Wrong" sector.

My response to Gini's query? I love Virginia and her male alter-ego, and they love me, and we are both Christians (although not very 'religious' - two very different things). I believe that God does not make any mistakes, and purposely created differences in humans with the commandment for us to love one another as He (or she) loves us. We have also been commanded to 'judge not lest ye be judged yourself' and 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone.' I don't let the opinions of others, or the "Religious Wrong," dictate how I live my life. In the end, when my time here on Earth is done, I only have to answer to one being and one being only - God.

* * *

That being said, I will leave the thread where it is with the proviso that it does not turn into a "food fight" for a religious debate!! If/when I feel the thread is turning into a debate, then I will move it to Hot Topics - of that you can be sure (it's written in cyber-stone)!

*Hugs*

- SL

[DonnaT]

See http://members.aol.com/gnlnews/index1.html

[Georgia(SO)]

No food fight yet... good sign!

I too am a life-long Christian, and I live with a male CD without benefit of marriage, so take what I say with your own appropriate dose of salt.

I agree with much of what Absaroka said, but I would expound. I long ago determined that, for me, Christianity was not about a set of rules, but about God's grace when I fall short of the ideal. I do that regularly - sometimes unintentionally, like not noticing the hungry person on the corner, and sometimes knowing full well that I am "sinning" - as in the fact that I am not going to marry this man but will continue to live with him.

For me, my Christianity is based more on the joyousness of a God who loves me, no matter what, and the simple fact that I get to go to Heaven when I die because Jesus said I could. Beyond that, I do the best I can on a daily basis, and God and Jesus understand why I do what I do.

Some may consider that to be a copout (hey, I was raised Presbyterian and I know a copout when I see one!) But I don't consider it that - I believe that the Bible was written by men, trying their best to write down what they thought God was telling them. Granted, if the Bible is not literally accurate, then everything is open to interpretation, but ya know, I take the major stuff on faith and guess what? God will forgive me if I get that one wrong too.

As for the CDing issue, it is mentioned only once, I think, in the Old Testament. It is not a biggie, and many of those Old Testament regulations were dumped by the Christian church. In fact, Jesus himself said there were only two commandments - love God with all your heart, and treat your brother as yourself. That trumped all the other specific rules in the Old Testament.

For those people for whom CDing is a religious issue, that is as much their right and privilege as it is my privilege to interpret the Bible in my own way. I don't really think that there is a basis on which you can argue someone out of believing that CDing is a sin if that is what they really believe. If they believe it's a sin, chances are quite likely that they are not going to change their mind, although you could point out to them that the Old Testament also says that daughters can be sold into slavery and that marrying a divorced woman is committing adultry, both issues that we no longer hold to.

I can't tell from Gini's post whether she is just curious or whether this is a real issue in her life. Hoping she's just curious because this sort of non-acceptance is going to be very difficult to get past.

My two cents...

georgia(so)

[Virginia]

There is a scene from a Mel Brooks movie, "A History of the World" where he, as Moses, comes down off the mountain with three stone tablets and confronts the Israelites as they are worshiping the golden calf and he says something to the effect that "God has given us these fifteen, fifteen," (as one of the tablets slips out of his grasp, falls to the ground and breaks in hundreds of pieces, he continues) "......God has given us these 10 - 10 Commandments!!"

Just a thought!

Virginia

[ShamrockFaerie(SO)]

I think this is a fantastic thread! I'm new so I'll share a little background.

My name is Tiffany. I'm a 26 year old wife to a CD and mother to a beautiful 8 month old daughter. We have a new baby on the way, due in December. I found out my husband was a CD 4 days ago, so we're still learning to trust each other again after years of lying, sneaking, and cover-ups. But we're getting there.

I am bisexual. I happen to also be a devout Christian. My father is a United Methodist minister, so I've been raised in faith and taught to read the Bible and develop my own personal relationship with God.

My God is a loving, forgiving, all-knowing God. He knows your secret desires and even the number of hairs on your head. God already knows if you're a crossdresser, even before you know it. It's not evil. It's not even a sin. What IS a sin, and what can become dangerous in relationships for crossdressers, is infidelity in the marriage bond. Infidelity covers everything from lying to cheating and back. THOSE are sins. To lie about your true desires and your true self is wrong, no matter WHO you're lying to.... Your spouse, yourself, your kids. Another thing that IS a sin is allowing anything to take the place of God in your life. If crossdressing makes you feel far from God or hurts your personal relationship with the higher power of your understanding, it's wrong. The important thing is to really TALK to God.... Open up. He already knows all your "sick" little secrets anyway. If you take the problems and struggles you have in a CD family to God, He listens just the same. He loves us ALL.

I won't go into Biblical analysis because a pp mentioned it had already been done. As a scholar of the Bible, and as a CHRISTIAN who believes in the NEW COVENANT created by Christ's death and resurrection, I look at the Old Testament as more of a historical document to help us understand the faith the Jesus came to change. Jesus never once in his ENTIRE MINISTRY ever mentions crossdressing, homosexuality or any other sexual bond OTHER than that of marriage. Therefore, I have to assume that like many of the old Jewish laws (like those requiring Kosher foods and animal sacrifices and ritual seclusion) the sexual morality laws of the Old Testament became null and void at the moment Jesus was resurrected and the New Covenant began.

I should also address the teachings of Paul about sexual morality. They include the subjugation of women, homophobia, and abstinence. Paul, like all humans was fallable. His word is not the Gospel. Jesus's is. Thank GOD I am not a Paulian (or anything of the sort) and I follow the actual teachings of Christ. The interpretations of those teachings by early church fathers (like Paul) is still, even 2000 years later, widely disputed. Therefore, what Paul says in the scriptures, I take it with a grain of salt and compare it to what I know about Jesus's ministry. If it matches, I roll with it. If it doesn't, I simply let it slide. The Bible is the LIVING Word and it is meant to be studied and interpreted according to each individual person's relationship with God. Different passages mean different things and carry different significance for each person who reads them. That's the absolute beauty and mystery of the Bible.

For me, it is very easy to reconcile my husband's crossdressing with my faith. One theme that remains strong throughout the scripture is the sanctity of the marriage bond. I love my husband. I promised in front of God and our loved ones that I would love, honor, and cherish this man through sickness and health, for richer and poorer, as long as we both shall live. Period. To me, my marriage is sacred and blessed by God, who already knew my husband was a crossdresser even before I did (5 years before, to be exact), and lightning didn't strike us down when we took our vows. If God is OK with it, then who am I to question?

In conclusion, I'd like to say that Christianity shouldn't be an exclusive club. We are called as Christians to share the good news with EVERYONE, and EVERYONE is welcome at God's table. No Christian (or anyone else) has the right to judge another person for ANYTHING. That's God's job. The worst sin of all is hating your neighbor. Jesus said "love your neighbor as yourself" as his GOLDEN RULE.... The one commandment that encompasses ALL commandments. So I stick with that. Christianity is about forgiveness and acceptance. It's not always easy, and these days there are lots of people who claim to be christians who are filled with self-righteousness and bigotry. Don't be fooled. Christianity is about love.... lacy frillies or not.

-Tiffany

[Georgia(SO)]

Where is the icon for a standing ovation???? Oh well, this will have to do!



g(so)

[DonnaT]

Well said by both Georgia and Tiffany!

[SilverLady(SO)]

As Georgia(SO), said - Where's the icon for a standing ovation?!?

Well said, Georgia & Tiffany, well said indeed!!



- SL

[JaneB (SO)]

I have given this topic alot of thought over the past 14 years and this is what I have concluded:

Live by the Golden Rule and the Commandments.

One can take anything from The Bible and say, "It says. . ."

What you DO is what is the truth.

[Carolynn]

No offense to anyone, but 90% of my close living relatives subscribe to the Southern Baptist sort of religion, and one is even a hell and brimstone preacher who is alway eager to "break bread" with his flock and family. You can perhaps imagine the attitudes of those who are serious about this religion, toward me as a TS. I think some of the attitudes expressed in the posts above are far superior to the one I was raised with---until I chose to end the relationship at age 13.


This quote has helped me put their attitude in perspective, as irreverent as it may be.

"Religion has convinced people that there's an invisible man...living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you and he needs money."

George Carlin


By the way, was there not a convention to use RCA in the title of anything dealing with religion in the part of this forum, or am I confusing it with some other one? Not that I am griping or proposing such a thing. Just the itchy bump of my curious bone desiring to be scratched.

Love, Carolynn

[Ann Stef]

All preachers of all faiths have 2 things in common.. M to F sex to keep the population in the faith, and pass the basket around to keep the faith fluid. CD's and TS's pose a threat to keeeping the faith going into the future. Less babies being born can deminish the faith. Consider the Shakers of Northern NY and New England. Homosexuality is the other factor that reduces the # in the faith.

[Lydia]

It's not just Christianity that worries about these behavors - all the religions do from Islam to the smallest cult. They are all petrified at the thought of losing customers. Just like Ford and Chevrolet are scared of losing customers.

Cynical Hugs,

Lydia

[Lisbeth]

. Funny. I don't feel like an abomination.

Lisbeth